Did the creation of the Universe require an intelligence ?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Willamina Tyndale, Nov 6, 2017.

  1. Willamina Tyndale Registered Member

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    Many believers cannot conceive of this amazing universe coming into being naturally.
    They think is requires an intelligent person to perfectly design the conditions required for life.
    This person, of course, is called God.
    They ignore the fact that God is also amazing and probably more so.
    Normally, a thing made is not as amazing as it's maker.
    For example, the Mona Lisa painting is much admired, but is not as wonderful as the artist.

    God is obviously more amazing than the Universe.
    If amazing things require a maker then God requires one too.

    In any case, intelligence didn't come early in the history of everything.
    It came very late.

    It took a very long time for the wheel to be invented.
    It took even longer for the discovery of germs.
    These are things that God never did.
     
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not really sure what point you're making.

    Are you arguing for a God? Against a God?
    Are you arguing that a God exists but didn't make the universe?
     
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  5. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    That pathway leads to infinite regression

    My betting would be nothing should exist

    But since we have a lot of thing I lost that bet. Since I don't like loosing no more bets I will settle on what I understand most people say when asked why is there stuff "I don't know"

    If Science finds out I am sure they will let us know. Perhaps I will bet it will not be god

    Intelligence is certainly a puzzle and a bit of a link to concessness which is the subject of the book I am currently reading

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  7. Gawdzilla Sama Registered Senior Member

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    Still waiting for someone to explain how they know when intelligence came about in this universe.
     
  8. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    When I arrived

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  9. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    No to the question in the OP heading. Probably intuitively it may seem that way as the universe appears finely tuned for life. But the facts are, if it wasn't that way, we would not be here. see.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle
    If some still think that some intelligence was necessary, or a deity as you suggest, Carl Sagan puts it rather succulently ......
    And of course although still rather speculatively, how we came to be, that is the universe/space/time, planets, stars, us, from what we would call nothing is explained here
    https://www.astrosociety.org/publication/a-universe-from-nothing/

    In essence then a deity or some all powerful deity not only seems beyond logic but also superfluous.
    The Darwinian theory of evolution is really beyond doubt, and Abiogenesis, is really the only scientific answer available for how life came to be. Chemistry and chemical reactions are the obvious answer.

    The BB is a powerful and well supported theory of the evolution of space/time/universe, and while only being a limited theory in that it does not tell us the how and why, and only goes back as far as t+10-43 seconds, will in all likelyhood be encompassed by any future validated QGT, whether that be an infinite universe or a type of cyclic one...It has that much going for it.
     
  10. birch Valued Senior Member

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    hahaha! a thing made including it's FAULTS then must be an indication of it's maker or it's own imperfections, obviously. it's as much religious blindness to think the universe is perfect and wonderful.
     
  11. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Can you?

    Not if God is so amazing, God simply Is, or necessarily exists.

    How do you know?

    Who invented it?

    What? Invent?

    Jan.
     
  12. Gawdzilla Sama Registered Senior Member

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    I'll file that under "Mysteries Solved" then. Cheerio!
     
  13. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    Take it out every so often and spread the word

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  14. Ivor Bigun Registered Member

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    "God Is" or maybe "God Isn't" ?

    By the way, only tautologies are "necessary".
    Existence of any particular entity is not and could not be necessary.
    However, given your earlier statements, I don't think you have studied logic.
     
  15. Ivor Bigun Registered Member

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    That's easy.

    There was a time when there was just plasma (13.82 billion years ago).

    The was another time when Michael 345 signed up to these forums (November 2016).

    In between these times, intelligence came about in this universe.
     
  16. Gawdzilla Sama Registered Senior Member

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    Ach! Alles klar, danke.
     
  17. Ivor Bigun Registered Member

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    She is demonstrating that it is silly to suppose that an intelligent person could have existed before (and created) the universe.
    So it is not an argument. It is a statement of the obvious.

    I am still waiting for someone to explain how they think God could have existed before anything existed.
    I am still waiting for someone to explain how they think God actually created the universe (in detail).
    I am still waiting for someone to explain how they think God can know the future.
     
  18. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    Given the general content in the Religion forum, can you even be sure it's yet here?
     
  19. Ivor Bigun Registered Member

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    And thank you too, mein Herr
     
  20. Ivor Bigun Registered Member

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    I can see why you might think that is the case.
    Example: Jan Ardena
    But you also need to consider the fact that Michael 345 Is
     
  21. Gawdzilla Sama Registered Senior Member

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    Can anyone being guided by their imaginary friend be considered intelligent?
     
  22. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    I don't know.
    But I could ask Harvey... Hang on.

    He says no.
     
  23. Ivor Bigun Registered Member

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    It is possible to be very intelligent and wrong.
    Even Einstein admitted making a mistake by adding a cosmological constant to one of his questions.
    Since the discovery of Dark Energy, it appears he wasn't wrong !
    So he was wrong about being wrong !!!
     

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