Did Pres. Obama throw Israel under the bus?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by quantum_wave, May 20, 2011.

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Did he or didn't he?

  1. No

    75.0%
  2. Yes

    25.0%
  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Thats obviously false. Why?



    According to Professor Shaye Cohen of Brown University:
    "Numerous Israelites heroes and kings married foreign women: for example, Judah married a Canaanite, Joseph an Egyptian, Moses a Midianite and an Ethiopian, David a Philistine, and Solomon women of every description. By her marriage with an Israelite man a foreign women joined the clan, people, and religion of her husband. It never occurred to anyone in pre-exilic times to argue that such marriages were null and void, that foreign women must "convert" to Judaism, or that the off-spring of the marriage were not Israelite if the women did not convert."


    So either the Israelites were not followers of Judaism or there has been a change in the thought of what constitutes a Jew

    Tracing to when matrilineal descent became part of Judaism:

    http://judaism.about.com/od/whoisajew/a/whoisjewdescent.htm
     
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  3. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Because of what you claimed. My initial question was how a woman can be a jew through a patrilineal line. You asked if I ever read Deuteronomy and then asked if I noticed all the missing mothers. Then you go on to say that you have a feeling that the matrilineal lineage in jews is probably a later innovation. Hence the women aren't missing and I showed you where in that same book it mentions the preference for women marrying within the sect saying nothing of the men. Since Judaism only recognizes a jew as a jew born of a jewish mother I'm curious as to how the chinese girl in the video can claim to be a jew from a patrilineal line and still be seen as a jew by other jews.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2011
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  5. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    So would I. I would be interested in seeing something that describes what jewish practices were passed down through the generations that can be identified today and which jewish clan they descended from and how they ended up in China. Evidently there is a chinese scholar who believes this is all hogwash:

    One scholar, Dr. Xun Zhou, doubts the authenticity of the Kaifeng community, believing it to have been largely a Western cultural construct. Xun Zhou, a research fellow at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London, maintains that the community had no Torah scrolls until 1851, when they suddenly appeared to be sold to eager Western collectors. She also states that drawings of the synagogue were doctored in the West because the original did not look like one, and that the Kaifeng community claimed to have kept some Jewish practices since before they are known to have begun. Xun Zhou's conclusion is that the Kaifeng community was not Jewish in any meaningful sense.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaifeng_Jews

    But check it out, I doubt that Israeli officials would accept a group based on dubious claims so I'm curious as to what it is they themselves noticed within the group that convinced them that these are the descendants of jews.
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Lucy you may also be interested in this:


    On such flimsy claims is the law of return based. Ironically, the Palestinians are probably more closely related to the original Judeans than any of the Israeli Jews since they, at least, never left.

    But do they get their rights in their own native lands? Of course not, not as logical as visions by nutcases in remote underdeveloped corners of India. Its interesting that they will convert them to orthodox Judaism so that they can then qualify for the right of return. Maybe thats how they are dealing with the Chinese "lost tribe" as well.

    Ah okay, I did not realise you were asking for a specific instance today
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2011
  8. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    @Sam

    Do you know if there were any signs of tradition being passed down from the Indian group? The Ethiopian jews for example celebrated similar holidays, circumcised in the same way and showed other signs of jewish traditions etc.

    I'm dying to know if the Chinese group exemplified signs of jewish tradition or if its just a case of DNA. The baffling thing is that orthodox jews have very high standards for what they believe makes a jew a jew, they are not typically interested in bringing people in willy-nilly and if the rules were relaxed it would be sure to create a huge row within their orders, which is why I don't understand how they could accept a chinese girl as a full fledged jew who claims aliyah based on a patrilineal line since the rules are as follows.

    'In Israel, the status quo is that the Orthodox definition is followed: the child of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother may immigrate to Israel (and may claim rights under the Law of Return), but will be registered in official documents as a non-Jew.'

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism

    If there is a certain population among Palestinians who can claim this it would be interesting to see what would happen if they tried. Would they force them to convert to orthodoxy do you think? Palestinians probably wouldn't want to be in Israel under the claim of being direct descendants anyway but it would be interesting to see what would happen if they tried.

    Why do they have teams going around doing this anyway do you know? Its a strange thing to do in a way, searching the globe for scattered jewry that may not even know they are descendants, do not practice and then dragging them back to Israel. How do they find them? How do they even know where to look? It cracked me up to hear that girl saying she was happy to be 'home'. I mean I was like "U must be kidding me!" She just found out she was jewish like yesterday! They must be offering them incentives or something. Another thing is this Chinese scholar who disputes the jewishness of the Kaifeng clan, she claims that its a 'western construct' but it doesn't really go on to explain this in any depth. I would be curious as to what she means by this. She claims that the group isn't jewish in any meaningful sense and I am inclined to agree with her unless of course there is evidence of primary traditions that were passed down from generation to generation because I don't believe for one second that they were wearing those yamakas EVER while in China nor any of their previous descendants because if they were they would not be considered Han while in China but some sub-tribe which would give the claim more credence but then everyone would have known about them a long time ago.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2011
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Numbers

    Thats a lot of "Jews" for the "Jewish state" lol. Cannon fodder one and all.
     
  10. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    @Sam

    But this culture of the Kuki-Chin-Mizo, is it jewish culture?

    Surely they're not bringing them all into Israel. Now, come on. I'm sure they're not simply trying to increase the ranks of the IDF, especially if they're all becoming orthodox, then they'll just refuse to serve.

    If its numbers how do they go about this? I'm truly bemused. And how do they get them to take aliyah? I understand it for Jews who have always known they are jews but...
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I think about 7500 of them have made "aliyah" so far

    As for Jewish culture - what is Jewish culture?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    The culture of the Kuki-Chin-Mizo is animist-Christian. But hey two of them had a vision that they were the lost tribe of Israel so it must be true

    As for why they are herded into Israel,

    Nothing says welcome to Judaism like moving from peace to abuse, from dancing for coexistence to violently fighting those whose homes you move into
     
  12. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    @Sam

    Jewish culture are the traditions ie: circumcision, mikveh, bar mitzvah, kashrut etc. It doesn't have to be identified by hebrew names but the timing etc should be approximate.

    Why did they go? Why do they stay? Can't they just go back to India? I mean they must have stronger ties in India, family etc. than they have in Israel. They wouldn't have been able to avoid the military as its mandatory.
     
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    They are not or rather, they were not, practicing Jews or any other kind of Jews. Almost all of them are animists who were converted to Christianity by British evangelists during the Indian occupation. However, now that they are converting to Judaism, one assumes they will be more Jewish than the Israelis.

    As for why, who knows? Mizoram is poor although educated and there are few industries and job opportunities. Israeli emigration is a package deal with housing and job security. Its kinda like an Englishman or woman discovering they had DNA in common with Prophet Mohammed and moving to Saudi Arabia after converting to Islam except the Mizos don't have the DNA link [except with some "Middle Eastern" people in the women which is probably of Mongol origin] just some "visions"

    edit:may have to re-think previous comment. Apparently, the Mizo Jews are dumber than I suspected:

    They are just cannon fodder.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2011
  14. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    Your compassionate concern for the wellbeing of the Mizo Jews is noted and, I'm sure, very much appreciated. If you have any statistics on the combat casualties sustained by this alleged cannon fodder, please cite them.
     
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Why? because you are so good at supporting your opinions with statistics? I've done enough one way citation with you to consider it not worth the bother. If animist Christians in Mizoram want to join the settler movement and die for visions, thats their prerogative. The rabbis statements that they have mandatory services in the disturbed areas and news reports that they are settled in the most dangerous zones [unlike the kosher Jews who get safer locations in the interior] are self explanatory except to the ziocaine addict.

    I just give them the Darwin award, as usual. Nothing else you can do with irretrievable rampant stupidity.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2011
  16. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    When I have a statistical assertion to make, yes.

    Link dumps aren't the same thing as one way citations. It would be more wise to pick a few specific citations and focus on the details, rather than just grabbing URL's from David Duke's blog, or one of those crazy amateur conspiracy websites with a blue background, a few frames and 300 links in ugly yellow font about how awful the Jews are.

    Yeah, I must be too busy snorting ziocaine to notice all the reports about this cannon fodder being settled on S.A.M.'s private property and dying from the resulting combat.

    Well at least you give the Jews an award, that's progress.
     
  17. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    @Sam

    Well it seems that there was reason for the Rabbi's to suspect they were jews both culturally and from DNA evidence, its this kind of information I was looking for on the Kaifeng Jews. I found this:

    The Bnei Menashe believe that the traditional Mizo-Kuki-Hmar harvest festival song in the Hmar language, "Sikpui Hla (Sikpui Song)" which features events paralleled in the Book of Exodus, such as enemies chasing them over a red-coloured sea, quails, and a pillar of cloud is clear evidence of their Israelite ancestry. Translation of the lyrics:

    While we are preparing for the Sikpui Feast, The big red sea becomes divided; As we march along fighting our foes, We are being led by pillar of cloud by day,'' And pillar of fire by night. Our enemies, O ye folks, are thick with fury, Come out with your shields and arrows. Fighting our enemies all day long, We march forward as cloud-fire goes before us. The enemies we fought all day long, The big sea swallowed them like wild beast. Collect the quails, And draw the water that springs out of the rock.


    On 1 April 2007, Michael Freund reported in the Jerusalem Post that the Bnei Menashe claim to have a chant they call Miriam's Prayer.[14] The words of the chant are identical to that of the Sikpui Song and the Post article is the first known print reference to Miriam's Prayer aka Sikpui Hla. Freund goes on to report that according to the Bnei Menashe "a century ago, when British missionaries first arrived in India's North-East, they were astonished to find that the local tribesmen worshipped one god, were familiar with many of the stories of the Bible, and were practicing a form of biblical Judaism". By all empirical accounts, the entire tribe were animists at the time of the arrival of the missionaries.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnei_Menashe

    DNA EVIDENCE IS PRESENT:

    Background
    The Kuki-Chin-Mizo population comprising traditionally endogamous tribal groups residing in the state of Mizoram, India claim their descent from the ten lost tribes of Israel that were exiled by the Assyrians. To ascertain their oral history, we analysed DNA markers comprising 15 autosomal microsatellite markers, 5 biallelic and 20 microsatellite markers on Y-chromosome and the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA sequence variations on 414 individuals belonging to 5 tribal communities from Mizoram (Hmar, Kuki, Mara, Lai and Lusei). The genetic profiles obtained were compared either with populations sharing Jewish ancestry or with local populations along the probable route of migration of the Jewish ancestry claimant Mizoram tribes.

    Results
    Y-STR analyses showed absence of the Cohen Modal Haplotype, the genetic signature of Cohanim origin. Y-chromosomal biallelic marker analyses revealed the presence of East and Southeast Asian-specific lineages and absence of haplogroup J predominant among Jewish populations. The mitochondrial DNA sequence analyses however revealed traces of genetic relatedness between the Jewish ancestry claimant Mizoram tribes and Near Eastern lineages. Autosomal analyses showed moderate degree of genetic differentiation among the different Mizoram tribes.

    Conclusions
    Migration of the lost tribes through China resulting in subsequent genetic admixture over a long period of time has probably diluted the extant gene pool of the Kuki-Chin-Mizo population. Although their paternal lineages do not exhibit any trace of Jewish ancestry, incidence of maternal Near Eastern lineages among the Mizoram tribals suggests their claim to Jewish ancestry cannot be excluded.

    http://genomebiology.com/2004/6/1/P1

    Everyone was animist if you look far back enough being animist does not exclude having been a member of the jewish tribes. There are accounts of them believing in one god then they were no longer animist, which one god tradition they belong to is of question and obviously what these rabbis had to pin-point with some definite signs leading to the judaism.

    Its your bias that they are being used as cannon fodder, these people who were not originally from Israel would be allowed to live anywhere in Israel and leave whenever they wish. When religious jews of European descent live in areas under attack you don't claim the Israeli government are using them as cannon fodder. Think for a moment, where is this incoming fire coming from? The Palestinian territory. You yourself have said over and over that these bombs do not hit civilians and cause relatively few deaths. If what you say is true then they cannot be cannon fodder. Your turn around description conflicts with your assessment that palestinian fire doesn't hurt Israeli's, you make it sound as if you are disappointed that there are not 'original' jews living there as a target. All Israeli's who join the military will work in Gaza the same way all recruits into the British military had to go to Northern Ireland as their first tour of duty so there's nothing special in that.

    If they are not receiving any financial support or work incentives then they must have gone because they believe themselves also to be Jews, there's no other explanation for it. If the account is correct then it would seem they were like the Ethiopian jews where there was strong evidence including the story of moving back to the place they were told is their home.

    I'm wondering what criteria holds the Kaifeng Jews but it sounds as if there may be some strong reasons for the Mizo.

    PS: You know you don't have to insult these people to discuss the issue. Its what leads people to believe you have deep seated hatred of jews, characterizations as 'stupid' etc are unnecessary, you are not in a flame war with jews or judaism. We're sharing information, challenging each other's ideas and trying to come to some understanding for ourselves here at sciforums, we're not at war with the object of the subject.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2011
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So the fact that they found no evidence of a link with Jews, is evidence of a link with Jews?

    Amazing and just the sort of conclusions possible on ziocaine.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnei_Menashe#Controversial_DNA_tests

    hilarious. If people come to conclusions as the above what other response do they expect?

    You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see these same rabbis cultivate the "lost" tribe of Ephraim.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Pashtun_descent_from_Israelites

    Yup, that would be something to watch
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2011
  19. Bells Staff Member

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    My great, great, great Grandmother (mother's side) was Jewish. She converted to Catholicism when she married her husband (same amount great grandfather).. Which would probably make me more genetically Jewish than the Bnei Menashe..

    I want somewhere with ocean views!

    Seriously now..

    No seriously..

    I don't even know where to go with this one...

    These people are miving to Israel and then undergoing an Orthodox conversion to errr make sure they really are Jewish...

    In short, non-Jews being given the right of return because they had a vision that they were of the lost tribe of Israel after the formation of Israel and are allowed to move to Israel and convert..

    Where can one go with this one?
     
  20. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    Hey, some people get this vision that the American dream happens to match with their own, and then often enough, despite all universal odds, they end up in America- go figure.

    So based on S.A.M.'s thinking, first Israel is evil because it allegedly seeks genetic purity. Now it's evil because it accepts immigrants who have a religious connection to the Jewish people, even if it's all based on mythology and wishful thinking, and without verifying "genetic purity". Which one is the real reason Israel is evil?

    Would it have been more appropriate for them to migrate via the Arabian peninsula, up through Egypt, into Gaza and then proclaim themselves descendants of Goliath the Greek? Would claiming descent from Obi Wan Kenobi get me free tickets to any Star Wars convention?
     
  21. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Israel is not destroying the Palestinians, just trying to push them out or maintain a minority ratio of Israeli Arabs. The Palestinians have several surrounding countries of near identical or identical culture that are not under threat.

    Huh? No Please do explain it again, and this time not in phrase.

    Oh a brain drain, well same as China and America and yet they seem to be chugging along.

    Well first off its racist of you to think that just because Jews fund political parties that they are funding only to support Israel, there is a difference between Zionist and Jews in general and not all jews are Zionist or give a dam about Israel. Second if your going to negate your own statement then where does this end of funding for Israel come that you eluded to? :shrug:

    So basically you admit you don't have a clue what your saying at this point?
     
  22. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Welcome to Palestine!

    So Israel has proved unequivocally that not only Gaza but also the West Bank is under a military blockade.
     
  23. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    She means she's praying fervently for Judenraus, and not a 'mythological' one. (Because in her mind, there were never any Jews there anyway. Or anywhere else, presumably.)
     

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