Did Pres. Obama throw Israel under the bus?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by quantum_wave, May 20, 2011.

?

Did he or didn't he?

  1. No

    9 vote(s)
    75.0%

  2. Yes

    3 vote(s)
    25.0%
Page 36 of 41
  1. Mrs.Lucysnow

    Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879
    Sam and I do not argue when she is simply stating a fact about Israel. We do, and will, knock heads when she uses hyperbole calling for example Israeli actions 'genocide' when its really ethnic cleansing or when she comes out with statements so completely disproportionate to reality, and so odious towards said group, that one can only surmise it has nothing to do with human rights abuses by the Israeli state but her own personal bias against jews. There are instances (like Duke) where attacks against the state of Israel are really only a guise to shroud their hatred of jews (anti-semitism). Pointing all this out isn't a sign of being a hypocrite but a sign of being precise.

    Oh stop being a twit. Ogden is a cultural archetype, you don't have to have watched Star Wars to understand what it means to call someone 'Darth Vader'.

    And her inanity? Did you address those? Nope. Didn't think so. Just because you pretend, or are truly blind, to whom said what, what one is responding to, and what is actually inappropriate and what is not, does not mean that by re-iterating falsehoods that the truth stops being the truth.

    I'm still waiting for the examples from these comments:

    1. You seem to support the Israeli Government policies which restrict the rights of Jews to marry the Jews they want to marry and the rights of women. (Show evidence of this)

    2. Her words are just as bad as your own. (Which comments?)

    3. Israel's Government is pushing the country and its Jewish inhabitants towards a point where inbreeding would result. (show how these laws amount to inbreeding. Define inbreeding, now go and define lineage. You'll find there is a big difference between marriage by lineage than that of inbreeding)

    The fact that you won't even respond to my direct assault on your assumptions and mis-represntations of the facts concerning Israeli marriage and inbreeding in post#687 tells me that you are incapable of doing so. You're conjuring propaganda and not truth, just like Sam does on this subject, which is a shame because it deflects from the real abuses waged against Palestinians and the real issues that need to be resolved. I mean is it also your opinion that Indonesian muslims will also be bred out of existence? Are they beginning to look like Sasquatch, or as Sam says Sasquatch has nothing on them? You must since you are vehemently defending this position and not only do you defend her thoughts on this but also attack anyone who challenges the stupid ignorant bloody comment.

    As for her inane braying's in this thread. I addressed and challenged and mocked it as it deserved. Not my problem if you don't like it.:shrug:

    Same goes for the clank clank clanking of your rusty bells.

    Attacking my marriage? What mod like behaviour. I would say the same for your husband but that would really be below the belt wouldn't it? What if I said something about your 'poor' children? When Wanderer made comments about your children he was banned for it. But I guess the hypocrisy of thinking of oneself as 'good' and being 'appropriate' and 'right' while accusing others of 'inappropriate attacks', 'rudeness', 'childishness', being retarded, 'bitchy', 'FLAMING HYPOCRITE' (my personal favorite) puts you above the fray does it? Makes you superior to those you think are five? A mod posting by example and all that gibberish? I expect from now on you'll be cool with any attack against your family whether it be innuendo or allusions towards them won't you? What if I said I feel sorry for your kids who have a stupid mother who does nothing but pretends to be something she's not over the internet? Or maybe I could simply say I pity them for inheriting your stupid genes? Or maybe that your poor husband must be a horse? Or that you produced dogs for children? Like that do you?

    Nice. Well done. *Ah fuck it I'll just report you*
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
    Mrs.Lucysnow, Jul 7, 2011
    #701

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  3. CptBork

    CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Sounds great, thanks for the link and I'll be sure to set aside some time to watch it. I had a feeling the ADL has become anachronistic when they started backing opinions which had nothing to do with defamation against Jews/blacks, but contained potentially defamatory accusations against Muslims- the NYC mosque dispute is a good example, I feel the ADL should have just kept its mouth shut if they had nothing positive or supportive to say about it.
     
    CptBork, Jul 7, 2011
    #702

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  5. Mrs.Lucysnow

    Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Well that's the point, they go after anything and everything and then label it as anti-semitic, some of the examples the ADL themselves produce as examples of anti-semitism are actually hilarious and really just amount to thought-policing. As usual all this deflects from real anti-semitism. Its interesting to see jews both secular and religious questioning whether the ADL and AIPAC are really good for Israel without pretending that there are not real legitimate problems facing the security of the Israeli state.
     
    Mrs.Lucysnow, Jul 8, 2011
    #703

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  7. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    But it is genocide.

    I've already provided links before to indicate how Israel fulfils all the requirements. If it walks like a duck...etc

    The fact that they are not wholly successful at it does not change the fact that they have an ongoing process of genocide being carried out. Even Hitler did not succeed in wiping out all the Jews and he was very efficient and organised about it.

    Israel accused of Gaza 'genocide'
    UN General Assembly president tells Al Jazeera the violence in Gaza is "untenable".

    Mayhaps you are out of touch with reality yourself where Israel is concerned.


    You may be interested in this article by Gilad Atzmon. According to him, Israel represents the Protocols of the Elders of Zion

    Instead of raising red herrings about Hamas perhaps you should focus on why Israel is enacting the protocols. That is more relevant to the future of both, Israel and 'diaspora' Jews


    The gay marriage would be a good analogy if there could be a marriage between a heterosexual Catholic man and a gay atheist. Yes, everyone can get married outside Israel, but what laws apply to them when they return home? Property rights for the religious are governed by halacha and in Israel being a Jew by nationality accords specific rights to some property which is leased by the JNF ONLY to Jews, alongwith many other perks which are accorded only to those who are Jews by nationality. So what happens when a religious Jew marries say, a woman who cannot establish her Jewishness? What rights do their children have? What if they want to divorce? How are the civil rights of mixed religious couples addressed
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
    S.A.M., Jul 8, 2011
    #704
  8. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Hey Bells calm down. Lucy and I do keep our personal feelings and forum debates separate - even though we both come off as extremist cranks when we get into the mud - and ya she did tell me who she married [although I have given up on the wedding pics lol - but privacy can be a serious issue for her so I don't blame her for it]

    The funny thing is that all of us debating here are probably of the same mind when it comes to issues like civil rights and probably all liberals who think the same way. We just have different ways of approaching the issues based on our background and experience.

    So, time for a Group Hug!

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    S.A.M., Jul 8, 2011
    #705
  9. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    You don't care about the real abuse towards Palestinians. Netanyahu celebrating policies that results in lower Palestinian birth rates is a real abuse towards Palestinian.. Denying them any rights is a real abuse towards Palestinians. I have provided numerous links in this thread. Don't be such a lazy git and go and read them.

    You wish to designate abuse towards them as you see fit. Does not mean that anything and everything that goes along is not just as abusive. Settlements is an abuse towards Palestinians.. There is a plethora of abuse and each time it is discussed, you do not discuss that, you attack the messenger (over and over again).

    In other words, you are a hypocrite. You are uncomfortable that a Muslim dares to criticise Israel so instead of actually reading what is being discussed, you go after her, even while you admit that you don't disagree with her. But that is how you operate when it comes to Sam and Israel. You'll disregard any abuse she may detail in the discussion and abuse her and you are not alone in this. It is plainly obvious to many Lucy. And something that has been discussed before.

    And?

    I actually don't expect any less from you Lucy. You are the type to attack people's children. This is who you are and what you are like. So I honestly am not shocked or upset by what you could say about my children.:shrug: You want to be insulting about my husband, children or even my cancer? Knock yourself out. I actually wouldn't expect you not to. Because that is who and what you are on this forum..

    You get as you give Lucy. You don't like it, then yeah, not my problem. I am not here to be nice to you or pander to your insecurities that a joke about the marriage you bring up in the discussion is taken badly. How can I put this.. If you can't take it, then don't dish it out.

    You want to report me? Then do so. I am sure he would love to hear from you. I believe you may even be a favourite.

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    Bells, Jul 8, 2011
    #706
  10. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    I have never once asked her or you about her personal relationships or whether she was married, single, etc. Because it is none of my business. She brings her marriage up and eludes to a "who" and wedding pics and then gets offended when I make a joke about it. Really, it was too funny.

    Most of my friends when I joke about their marrying a horse usually respond with 'yeah he wishes' and the rest are along the lines of jokingly commenting about walking the next morning or about sex toys, etc. She responds as if I am attacking her marriage.

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    And then she acts as if i should be offended if she attacked my children.. As I said, I would not expect her not to.. Because that is who she is.

    I'll give you an example. Geoff and I fight like cats and dogs on this forum. We flame each other and we tear each other to pieces. But Geoff is also probably about the only one here who knows more about what has happened to me in the last year. And not once has he ever mentioned it in public or used it against me or tried to attack me with it. No matter how ugly it got, he never once used any of it. Lucy is not Geoff.

    She should be happy that you do defend her so. I hope for your sake she lives up to it. Although I doubt it.

    You'll excuse me if I forgo the "group hug". Her harpy like talons might scratch.

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    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
    Bells, Jul 8, 2011
    #707
  11. Gustav

    Gustav Banned Banned

    Messages:
    12,575

    your idea of being supportive, eh?
    your loose cannon shit is getting tiresome
     
    Gustav, Jul 8, 2011
    #708
  12. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    I guess my relationship with Lucy is probably similar to yours with Geoff, We chat on and off offline and occasionally vent by email, so you'll notice I ignore it when she starts going personal and pro-Israel on me.

    As for,

    I don't really know Geoff all that well, so I can't comment on that, but I have never held anything either Geoff or Lucy have said on the forums against them personally. I admit I used to have a negative opinion of Geoff when I first came in but his actions unexpectedly have not matched his words and he has redeemed himself several times over.

    You want me to take sides against two people I know almost equally well? Bells is more like me and we share more perspectives than Lucy and I do. Thats because we probably share background experiences at grassroots levels - being minorities in our own society and hence more sympathetic to the Palestinian POV - while Lucy comes from a different milieu and there are some personal reasons for her perspective. My problem is I know both of them so I know why they have those perspectives but I don't like to get into personal issues on forums. I get it that Lucy and you don't like each other but I like all three of you so what do I do? I know I have inadequately expressed my thanks to Bells for defending me and I do appreciate it, even if I don't put it across very well.

    its a problem I have
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
    S.A.M., Jul 8, 2011
    #709
  13. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    Meanwhile back in reality..

    Last week, acting on orders from the government, the Civil Administration declared 189 dunams of land belonging to the Palestinian village of Karyut to be state land, so as to retroactively legalize houses and a road in the Hayovel neighborhood of the settlement of Eli. This would seem to violate Israel's long-standing commitment to the United States not to expropriate Palestinian lands for settlement expansion.

    (Source)
    ​


    It seems Israel has gone and found itself a terra nullius loophole in an Ottoman land law that dates back to 1858.

    In 2004, then-Prime Minister Ariel Sharon promised U.S. President George W. Bush to stop this practice, and this promise was later reiterated by his successor, Ehud Olmert. In his speech at Bar-Ilan University in 2009, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said, "We have no intention to build new settlements or set aside land for new settlements. But there is a need to have people live normal lives and let mothers and fathers raise their children like everyone in the world." ​

    Ah, God love em'!

    Because of course, this is how all normal people act around the world today.. Right?

    Unfortunately for Palestinians and Israelis, the Israeli Government is made up of well.. see for yourself..

    "But if Rabbi Lior and his followers' excesses might be dangerous, equally worrisome is how their targeting the judiciary and prosecutors' office dovetails with the agenda of our current government.

    "We will continue to grow until the day that we will be the majority in the state," promised Knesset member Yaakov Katz, of the National Union, after the rally for the rabbis. "We will pass legislation to use to investigate everyone who transgressed in the name of the High Court and state prosecutor's clique." Like the rabbis' followers, Katz and company want to weaken the Supreme Court and the State Prosecutor's Office. The latter have become Israeli democracy's institutions of last resort to counter attempts to ride roughshod over Palestinian rights and land claims, and to occasionally block illegal settler activity. While the protesters see the court as evil because the law it upholds is not rooted in their interpretation of Torah, Katz promises to prosecute anyone who dares to challenge settlement building or settlers themselves. It is not hard to picture visions of show trials flitting through his mind.

    But Katz is not alone. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu also wants to weaken the Supreme Court, to eliminate legal encumbrances to settlement expansion, and to concentrate more power in his own office. This confluence between our government's short-term political agenda and the worldview of anti-democratic fanatics is the most threatening turn of this week's political wheel.     "

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-threat-to-the-rule-of-law-1.372067
    ​

    Now of course, weakening the civil legal system is bad not just for Palestinians, but for Jewish women and non Jewish Israelis. As an example, Government policy about female migrant workers in Israel which was cited as an area of concern in the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women report:

    Furthermore, the Committee is seriously concerned at the State party’s existing policy that migrant workers who give birth must leave the State party with their baby within three months of giving birth or send their baby out of the State party's borders so as to safeguard their work permits. The Committee is equally concerned that marriage and intimate relationships between migrant workers under an existing State party policy constitute cause to revoke the couple's work permits.

    (Page 10)
    ​

    Migrant women are not alone in facing discrimination. As well as Palestinian and Bedouin women, Jewish women were also cited as an area of particular concern because of the discrimination they face in matters of marriage, divorce of child custody:

    "Noting that all Jews in Israel can be married and divorced only in the rabbinical courts which are male dominated and completely governed by religious law, the Committee is concerned about discrimination against women in the context of divorce in such courts, in that only the husband has the right to grant his wife divorce (the “get”) of his own free will. The Committee also expresses its concern at recent cases of retroactive invalidation of divorce, to the detriment of Jewish women. The Committee is further concerned about the continuing practices of polygamy and under-age marriage of girls that are legitimized under different religious laws governing personal status."

    (Page 12)
    ​


    Now certainly, Israel is not alone to face such criticisms. They are not the first country, nor will they be the last. But maybe, just maybe, Israel should not declare itself a democracy. Because it is not. Nor should such policies be supported or defended because to speak out against it is to be seen as being anti-semitic.
     
    Bells, Jul 8, 2011
    #710
  14. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,825
    Except when they are Palestinians:

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...der-to-legalize-west-bank-settlement-1.372023

    Eh for the first time in three years? Three Years? THREE YEARS!!!!!

    Interesting article in Haaretz: [extracts]

     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
    S.A.M., Jul 8, 2011
    #711
  15. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    54,036
    That's not even worthy of taking seriously.
     
    spidergoat, Jul 8, 2011
    #712
  16. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825

    The actions of Israelis are certainly more relevant than what someone in Hamas says:

    http://972mag.com/idf-destroys-9-water-tanks-in-parched-palestinian-village/

    What kind of petty people destroy someone's water supply?

    Some news analysis of the Airtilla which has been so remarkably successful in its objective:

    extracts from http://972mag.com/airflotilla-1442372011/
    Brilliant!

    And on the other side - the "most moral army in the world"
    The guilty are afraid...
     
    S.A.M., Jul 8, 2011
    #713
  17. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    54,036
    It's not just "what someone in Hamas said", it's part of their foundational document.
    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

    In fact, this document is the Islamic version of the Protocols, but real. It describes how land that is in the hands of a predominately Muslim population should be considered the religious property of all Muslims until Judgment Day. Basically, it sentences a large portion of the Earth to theocracy, with no appeal possible: "so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement...". These people are just as much responsible for the misery of the Palestinians as any fanatic Israeli settler. They morn the loss of the Islamic Caliphate, and seek it's return. There are few threats to world peace and freedom more serious than that. I wonder if the proponents of Palestinian independence and self determination know what they are in for if they succeed. They make Zionism look like a book club.
     
    spidergoat, Jul 8, 2011
    #714
  18. GeoffP

    GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    That's right. Not once did I talk about the penguin, nor throw the general issue of penguins in your face.


    ...oh, shit.
     
    GeoffP, Jul 8, 2011
    #715
  19. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Maybe but still irrelevant if the Zionists enact the protocols and make them real. Israel has a real problem - that those who visit Palestinians can see exactly why they would think like that and moreover, how much of the misery caused to the Palestinians can be laid at the door of some foundational document

    People who come to Israel as tourists leave as activists.

    You can sing about Hamas till the cows come home but all it needs is one visit to Palestinians and people who can see their POV very clearly.

    Alice Walker:

    Israel actions work against it, no matter what Hamas said in 1988 long before it entered the political arena

    And btw, this week South Africa made it legal to label Israel as Apartheid Israel

    http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=228358

    So yeah, what Hamas said in 1988, not really relevant.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
    S.A.M., Jul 8, 2011
    #716
  20. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    54,036
    These activists must be ignorant of who they are really supporting. When Palestinians choose jihad over peaceful negotiation, the logical response can only be anger and oppression, not kind understanding of their goals of Islamic domination.
     
    spidergoat, Jul 8, 2011
    #717
  21. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    The logical response to any oppression is revolution.

    Gaza 'Flytilla' activists arrested for chanting 'Free Palestine' in Tel Aviv airport

    The pro-Palestinian activists of today are not the kind of people you can brainwash with your hasbara:

    http://mondoweiss.net/2011/05/i-lef...ice-to-the-scores-of-palestinian-gandhis.html

    Maybe you should leave your bubble and face reality
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
    S.A.M., Jul 8, 2011
    #718
  22. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    54,036
    I support liberation of the Palestinians as a humanitarian movement, but not Hamas, who would end up usurping any gains with their own brand of oppression. The Palestinians have two enemies.
     
    spidergoat, Jul 8, 2011
    #719
  23. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    You sound like an anachronistic illiterate to any person acquainted with Palestinians and their cause. And your support for Palestinian liberation is pretty meaningless since you also support a Jewish state. Its like supporting apartheid South Africa and purporting to recognise the rights of blacks. The two are mutually exclusive.
     
    S.A.M., Jul 8, 2011
    #720
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