Detroit City Unions: free 13th month

They sell a magazine to pay staff and research cost. How do the other groups you named pay their staff and for the inspections / investigation / product testing / they claim to be doing?

Have you seen their IRS returns? What is the basis for your claim that the industries they "regulate" don't pay them for right to display their logo? Probably just their claim of that.

I have told you before why wealth concentrates if their is no compulsory mechanism to redistribute it. "It takes money* to make money."

* But some of everyone's money does NOT make money - it buys necessities like food, shelter, etc. so the already rich have more (a greater fraction as well an absolute amount) of the income left over after these "necessities" to invest for making more money. I. e. The rich make more money faster than the middle class does - WEALTH NATURALLY CONCENTRATES. The poor may have no money left over to make money with. This logic is unchanged if their is one or 100 different currencies.

 

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no part of international law requires a collective territory to be a nation. a state yes but not a nation

 

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you do realize just a few posts ago you did?

 

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To see what ACTUALY HAPPENS with little regulation, Michael, look here: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...-Wall-Street&p=3124493&viewfull=1#post3124493

The real world is not populated by angels, as you assume, but by greedy, self-serving, humans (and institutions).

BTW, You are wrong in post 80. Those nine you list do NOT regulate. (SEC should but did not under GWB.) What those nine do is evaluate and not well a the conflict of interest is too strong. - They are paid by those they rate! Little wonder that the week before Lehman bros went under they still got AAA rating.

 

I'm not sure of your point here? Yes, banks were deregulated and now we have a mess. I agree. But, that's not the same thing as saying a deregulated banking industry wouldn't function better than a regulated one.

Think of it like this:
Imagine you lived in a country where drinking was allowed from the age of 8 (which is true in some counties). Now, imagine the organic/naturally-evolved* social institutions that have developed to ensure 8 year old children are not alcoholics. Maybe parents look after their children and make it clear what alcohol is and how it can affect you. Perhaps peopled develop a social awareness of alcohol at an earlier age? Perhaps social stigmas would develop so that shop owners that sell to kids lose reputation and business. Etc...

Now imagine a country where the drinking age was capped at 21 and suddenly it's moved down to 8. NONE of the organic/natural evolution of social institutions occurred - thus the social structure is NOT there and kids suddenly feel 'free' and they go hog-wild drinking themselves to death.

Does this make sense?

I'm not saying that when Clinton deregulating the banks, that this didn't cause the crises. It did. So we agree. What I'm trying to make the argument is that: Had we never had a central bank, had we never had STATE banking regulations, we would have developed a society with sets of PRIVATE regulations over the last 100 years. I'll take one example: Suppose that there had NEVER been The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC). Just imagine it was never created. Now, how do you think that would have POSITIVELY affected the free-markets (I'm asking for positive because I just want to hear some ideas on this side of the coin). Perhaps citizens would be much more careful about which banks have their money AND what that bank is up to? Perhaps an entirely new insurance would have developed - one that was VERY carefully monitoring all the banks that it was ensuring deposits in. Perhaps this insurance company would also act as a ratings agency? Or perhaps rating agencies would have developed differently. Perhaps people would still use gold? Who knows? You see? We simply never developed THAT world. It never happened because we resorted to the State**.

Is my argument any clearer? I'm not disagreeing with you on the GFC/soon to be depression. I'm making a different argument altogether.

It's not that I think the world is populated with angels, I'm saying we never developed/evolved the society to property deal with the devils - actually, they run this world, we're cattle on their farms.

Yes, I agree, those agencies do not regulate. However, they statistically evaluate the banks which are then trade based on a set of regulations based on their ranking (AAA for example). My point was the Government determines which companies are allowed to legally act as rating agencies.

* I'm using the world evolve colloquially, but you get the point.
** Actually, it was the Private Bankers who created our Central Bank. At that time in history, Progressivism, the idea that Science and Technology was thought to be the key to unleashing social equality. Thus was born the Central Bank in the minds of the public. It was to be run by "Economists" who would use "Science" to ensure the 'markets' were stable. But, this can't happen. It's not possible. Central planning doesn't work. On top of that, it was the Bankers themselves who developed and created the Central Bank. If you think they didn't do it to ensure THEY were the one's "Guiding" the economy, well, then I suggest reading:
The Creature from Jekyll Island : A Second Look at the Federal Reserve.

We will spend most of our time arguing about stuff like ObamaCare - rather than thinking about how we create our fiat currency. I am of the mind we need a fourth branch of government, just to deal with the creation of fiat currency - which, in addition to other competing currencies (some of which could be money), should also include one from the State not backed by income tax, and used by the State to pay State employees/civil servants. Inflation could be dealt with by (a) interest rates and (b) kept in check with other currencies. Imagine if you're a public servant and you want more 'money' (most of them do - and they are now better paid than the private sector that employs them!) so the State ramps up the printing presses and you get your extra money - but, at the same time, you're paid LESS in terms of interest on your money (because there's more of it) and at the same time goods and services are going to cost you more of that money (because there's more of it) relative to other currencies.

Anyway, it's something we as a nation WILL have to deal with. The system we have now is f*cked. Totally f*cked. The evil sociopaths are now our farmers. We are their tax-cattle. I would not be surprised one iota if they don't ramp up the war machine - I mean real war. This is how sociopaths deal with their cattle, when there's no more milk, time to sell them to slaughter.

 

Point below being that Michael HAS BEEN PROVEN wrong (especially part of his post I made bold) In pre-1900 it was easy to set up societies that ignored the "state" and lived by their self regulating rules, if any, that usually were liberal or socialistic ideas. His ideas WERE tried and failed, more than a 1000 times (thru out history and regions).
Not one has worked out well.

If there were ANY truth to Michael's ideas, at least 1 of the > 1000 failed groups that tried his ideas would have survived.

Wiki has articles on 111 utopian groups. See the "click on list" of links to the Wiki articles here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Utopian_communities
Below is a partial list of the major utopian societies that existed JUST in US during the 1800s (chosen as it gives the founding and ending dates). Most were quite liberal and /or socialistic with common ownership, some even with sexual sharing of the women. In almost all property was held in common and many thought government regulations were un-necessary, or like Michael, even evil and destructive of well being.
I. e., Like Michael, most believed that People, freed of the state's interference would live better, more productive lives.

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Some were religiously based, so they had "God given rules and regulations."

List is easier to read at the source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Utopian_communities where the following are in columns:
Name, Location, Founder, Founding Date, Ending Date, Notes.
I'm too lazy to give the average number of years before ALL collapsed. More than half were dead in less than a decade.
The ones with bold date in list below DIED, on average, in less than 3 years.

Old Economy Village Pennsylvania George Rapp 1824 1906 - - A Harmonites Village.**
The Harmony Society is a Christian theosophy and pietist society founded in Iptingen, Germany, in 1785.
New Harmony Indiana Robert Owen 1825 1829 Harmonites Village
New Philadelphia Colony Pennsylvania William Morris[1] 1832 1833 A libertarian socialist community
Oberlin Colony Ohio John J. Shipherd and 8 immigrant families[1] 1833 1843 Community based on Communal ownership of property[1]
Brook Farm Massachusetts George Ripley Sophia Ripley 1841 1846 A Transcendent community. Transcendentalism is a religious and cultural philosophy based in New England.
North American Phalanx New Jersey Charles Sears 1841 1856 A Fourier Society community. The Fourier Society is based on the ideas of Charles Fourier, a French philosopher.
Hopedale Community[2] Massachusetts Adin Ballou 1842 1868 A community based on "Practical Christianity", which included ideas such as temperance, abolitionism, Women's rights, spiritualism and education.[3]
Fruitlands Massachusetts Amos Alcott 1843 1844 A Transcendent community.
Skaneateles Community New York Society for Universal Inquiry 1843 1846 A Society for Universal Inquiry and Reform community.
Sodus Bay Phalanx New York Sodus Bay Fourierists 1844 1846 A Fourier Society community.
Wisconsin Phalanx[4] Wisconsin Albert Brisbane[5] 1844 1850 A Fourier Society community. [4]
Clermont Phalanx Ohio Followers of Charles Fourier 1844 1846 A Fourier Society community.
Prairie Home Community Ohio John O. Wattles[1] Valentine Nicholson[1] 1844 1845 A Society for Universal Inquiry and Reform community.
Fruit Hills Ohio Orson S. Murray[1] 1845 1852 A community based on Owenism and anarchism.[1]
Maintained close contact with the Kristeen and Grand Prairie Communities.
Kristeen Community Indiana Charles Mowland[1] 1845 1847 Founded by Charles Mowland and others ...
Spring Farm Colony Wisconsin 6 Fourierite Families[1] 1846 1848 A Fourier Society community.
Oneida Community New York John H. Noyes 1848 1880 A Utopian socialism community. {This is a Billy T insert: One of the best known, with many off shoots. Their ideas about sex are straight from Plato's Republic. I.e. Young men get first and regular sex with one experienced older woman (a quasi-marriage) and young girls the same with older men, to learn with less urgent sexual needs men, etc. I think Plato may have a suggestion here that would benefit all*, now that the girls need not get pregnant. *But the prostitute's pimps don't like it.}
The Oneida Community practices included Communalism, Complex Marriage, Male Continence, Mutual Criticism and Ascending Fellowship.
Icarians Louisiana, Texas, Illinois, Iowa, Missouri, California Étienne Cabet 1848 1898
A group of egalitarian communes based on the French utopian movement, founded by Étienne Cabet, after led his followers to the United States.
Amana Colonies Iowa the Community of True Inspiration 1850's 1932 The Amana villages were built one hour apart when traveling by ox cart. Each village had a church, a farm, multi-family residences, workshops and communal kitchens. The communal system continued until 1932.
Raritan Bay Union New Jersey Marcus Spring Rebecca Buffum 1853 1858 A Fourier Society community.[1]
Free Lovers at Davis House Ohio Francis Barry[5] 1854 1858 A community based on [Free love and spiritualism.][5]
Reunion Colony Texas Victor P. Considerant 1855 1869 A utopian socialism community.
Octagon City Kansas Henry Club Charles DeWolfe John McLaurin 1856 1857 Originally built as a Vegetarian Colony.
Shalam Colony New Mexico John B. Newbrough Andrew Howland 1884 1901
A community in which members would live peaceful, vegetarian lifestyles, and where orphaned urban children were to be raised.
Home, Washington Washington George H. Allen Oliver A. Verity B. F. O'Dell 1895 1919 An intentional community based on anarchist philosophy
Equality Colony Washington Norman W. Lermond Ed Pelton 1897 1907 Socialist Colony

** Note only one entry for each is listed above but many had "regional branches." For example:
Amana Colonies Iowa the Community of True Inspiration 1850's 1932 The Amana villages were built one hour apart when traveling by ox cart.
Each village had a church, a farm, multi-family residences, workshops and communal kitchens. The communal system continued until 1932.

It survived ~80 years (the longest, I think), before the very last village collapsed.(Possibly living until the inspirational founder(s) died.)

Perhaps the above made my point more clearly? If not, here it is more bluntly: You are full of BS and preaching unsupported nonsense, proven wrong more than 1000 times.

 

Billy T,

Appealing to historical precedence is not a logical argument. It goes like this: Something didn't work once in the past, therefor it can never work in the future. You know, like blood transfusion. Blood transfusion was tried a bunch of times in the 1800s and didn't work, thus is will never work. Or Democracy, a bunch of Greek City-States tried democracy once in the past, it failed, therefore it can never work. Or flying, you know, because many times in the past various people tried to fly and it didn't work - therefore it will never work and humans will never fly.

And you know what's worse? Not only is yours is a case of comparing apples with oranges (superstitious nutty religious communes compared with secular laissez-faire capitalism as applied to currency) - you actually believe your own cherry picking?!

In short your argument is unsound.


As an example, let's use your same argument, by making a list of all the Fiat Currencies (since the 1500s) whose value as gone to ZERO. Thus, if you follow your own line of reasoning, you MUST conclude that ONLY gold and silver CAN be money (these moneys have intrinsic value and have been used for 5000+ years are the only true form of money). By your line of reasoning, you MUST further conclude that NO OTHER currency except gold and silver CAN be used as 'money' - EVER. You know, because in the past something didn't work, thus it can never work.

The numbers to the right list the year the currency was initially created, when it ended, the time it lasted in years and if it was destroyed through hyperinflation.

Currency Name (Currency Code) Inception Demonetized Duration
(Years) Destroyed by
Hyperinflation
DDR Kuponmark (DDK) 1948 1948 1 mo. Yes
Yugoslav 1994 Dinar (YUG) 1994 1994 1 mo. Yes
Hungarian Bilpengoe (HUB) 1946 1946 1.5 mos. Yes
German Gold Mark (DEG) 1923 1923 2 mos. Yes
Hungarian Adopengoe (HUA) 1946 1946 2 mos. Yes
Netherlands Rijksdaalder (NLX) 1904 1904 2.5 mos.
Slovenia Laibach Lira (SIL) 1944 1944 2.5 mos.
Hungarian Milpengoe (HUM) 1946 1946 3 mos. Yes
North Korean Won (KPO) 1959 1959 3 mos. Yes
Kazakhstan Ruble (KZR) 1993 1993 3 mos. Yes
Yugoslav October Dinar (YUO) 1993 1993 3 mos. Yes
Krajina (Serbian Republic) October Dinar (HRKO) 1993 1994 3 mos. Yes
Polish Zloty Lublin (PLL) 1944 1945 4 mos.
Serbian Republic October Dinar (BASO) 1993 1994 4 mos.
Hungarian Red Army Pengoe (HUR) 1945 1945 6 mos. Yes
Rupiah Kepulauan Riau (IDRR) 1963 1964 8.5 mos.
Uzbekistan Coupon Sum (UZC) 1993 1994 8.5 mos. Yes
Japan Base Metal Kammon (JPK) 1904 1905 9 mos. Yes
Japan Silver Momme (JPM) 1904 1905 9 mos. Yes
Japan Gold Oban (JPO) 1904 1905 9 mos. Yes
Lithuania Talonas (LTT) 1992 1993 9 mos. Yes
Ukraine Karbovanetz (UAK) 1992 1993 11 mos. Yes
Transnistrian Ruble (PDR) 1994 1994 11 mos. Yes
French Franc (Assignats) (FRA) 1795 1796 1 Yes
French Franc (Mandats Territorial) (FRM) 1796 1797 1 Yes
Confederate States Reformed Dollar (CSAR) 1864 1865 1 Yes
German New Guinea Mark (PGM) 1914 1915 1
German Southwest Africa Mark (NAP) 1914 1915 1
Transcaucasian Ruble (ZKRR) 1917 1918 1
Austrian Krone (ATK) 1918 1919 1
North Russian Ruble (RUNR) 1919 1920 1
East Africa Florin (XEAF) 1920 1922 1
Russian Ruble of 1922 (RUFR) 1922 1922 1 Yes
Soviet Ruble of 1923 (SUB) 1923 1924 1 Yes
Austrian Allied Military Schillings (ATM) 1944 1945 1
Czechoslovak Red Army Korunu (CSR) 1944 1945 1
Romanian Red Army Leu (ROR) 1944 1945 1 Yes
Azerbaijan Toman (IRZT) 1945 1946 1
Sinkiang Gold Yuan (CNSG) 1948 1949 1
Chinese Gold Chin Yuan (CNG) 1948 1949 1 Yes
Ghana Old Cedi (GHO) 1965 1967 1
Brazil Cruzado Novo (BRN) 1989 1990 1 Yes
Slovenia Tolar Bons (SIB) 1991 1992 1
Moldovan Ruble Kupon (MDR) 1991 1992 1 Yes
Moldovan Leu Cupon (MDC) 1992 1993 1
Albanian Lek Valute (ALV) 1992 1993 1
Serbian Republic Reformed Dinar (BASR) 1992 1993 1 Yes
Krajina (Serbian Republic) Reformed Dinar (HRKR) 1992 1993 1 Yes
Latvia Ruble (LVR) 1992 1993 1 Yes
Macedonian Denar (MKN) 1992 1993 1 Yes
Yugoslav Reformed Dinar (YUR) 1992 1993 1 Yes
Brazil Cruzeiro Real (BRR) 1993 1994 1 Yes
Maryland Red Shillings (CMDR) 1781 1783 2
New Jersey New Shilling (CNJN) 1781 1783 2
Vermont State Shilling (CVTS) 1781 1783 2
Haiti New Paper Gourde (HTN) 1870 1872 2 Yes
Peru Inca (PER) 1880 1882 2
Germany Darlenskasse Ost Ruble (DEOR) 1916 1918 2
Armenian Ruble (AMR) 1918 1920 2
Azerbaijan Republic Ruble (AZR) 1918 1920 2
Khiva Tenga (KHVT) 1918 1920 2
Soviet Armenian Ruble (AMSR) 1920 1922 2
Soviet Azerbaijan Ruble (AZSR) 1920 1922 2
Far Eastern Republic Ruble (DBRR) 1920 1922 2
Soviet Transcaucasian Ruble (ZKSR) 1922 1924 2
Spanish Nationalist Peseta (ESPN) 1936 1939 2
Reichs Karbowanez (UAC) 1942 1944 2
US “Hawaiian” Dollar (USDH) 1942 1944 2
Italy American Military Lira (ITA) 1943 1945 2
Italy British Military Lira (ITB) 1943 1945 2
Italy “Badaglio” Lira (ITLB) 1943 1945 2
Italy “Mussolini” Lira (ITLM) 1943 1945 2
Korean Military Won (KROM) 1945 1947 2
French Franc Nouveau (FRF) 1960 1962 2
Biafran Pound (BIAP) 1968 1970 2
Oman Rial Saidi (OMS) 1970 1972 2
Argentina Peso Argentino (ARP) 1983 1985 2 Yes
Yugoslav Convertible Dinar (YUN) 1990 1992 2 Yes
Belarus Ruble (BYL) 1992 1994 2
Bosnia Dinar (BAD) 1992 1994 2 Yes
Georgia Kupon Larit (GEK) 1993 1995 2 Yes
Krajina (Serbian Republic) 1994 Dinar (HRKG) 1994 1996 2 Yes
Maryland Black Shillings (CMDB) 1780 1783 3
Confederate States Dollar (CSAD) 1861 1864 3
Mexico “Inconvertible” Paper Peso (MXI) 1913 1916 3
Georgian Ruble (GER) 1918 1921 3
Danzig Mark (DZGM) 1920 1923 3
Soviet Khiva Ruble (SUVT) 1920 1923 3
Memel Mark (MMLM) 1920 1923 3
Canton Dollar (CNDC) 1935 1938 3
Netherlands Indies Gumpyo Gulden (IDDJ) 1941 1944 3 Yes
Romania Infinex Leu (ROI) 1941 1944 3 Yes
Philippine Guerilla Peso (PHG) 1942 1945 3
Malaya Gumpyo Dollar (MYAG) 1942 1945 3 Yes
Netherlands Indies Gumpyo Roepiah (NIDR) 1943 1946 3
Nationalist Manchurian Yuan (CNNY) 1945 1948 3
Japanese Allied Yen (JPA) 1945 1948 3
German Allied Mark (DEA) 1945 1948 3 Yes
German Sperrmark (DES) 1951 1954 3
Portuguese India Escudo (INPE) 1959 1962 3
Reunion Franc (REF) 1959 1962 3 Yes
Katanga Franc (KATF) 1960 1963 3
Viet Nam South Dong (VNS) 1975 1978 3
Laos Liberation Kip (LAL) 1976 1979 3 Yes
Brazil Cruzado (BRC) 1986 1989 3 Yes
Nicaragua Cordoba (NIC) 1988 1991 3 Yes
Brazil Cruzeiro (BRE) 1990 1993 3 Yes
Russian Ruble (RUR) 1991 1994 3
Bosnia New Dinar (BAN) 1994 1997 3
Alabama Confederate Dollar (CSALD) 1861 1865 4
Arkansas Confederate Dollar (CSAKD) 1861 1865 4
Florida Confederate Dollar (CSFLD) 1861 1865 4
Georgia Confederate Dollar (CSGAD) 1861 1865 4
Louisiana Confederate Dollar (CSLAD) 1861 1865 4
Mississippi Confederate Dollar (CSMSD) 1861 1865 4
North Carolina Confederate Dollar (CSNCD) 1861 1865 4
South Carolina Confederate Dollar (CSSCD) 1861 1865 4
Tennessee Confederate Dollar (CSTND) 1861 1865 4
Texas Confederate Dollar (CSTXD) 1861 1865 4
Spanish Escudo (ESE) 1864 1868 4
Yugoslav Kronen (YUK) 1918 1922 4
Ruble Sovnazki (RUFS) 1918 1922 4
Latvia Ruble (LVB) 1918 1922 4 Yes
Russian Ruble Sovnazki (RUFS) 1918 1922 4 Yes
Soviet Bukhara Ruble (BKSR) 1920 1924 4
Germany Behelfszahlungsmittel (XDEB) 1940 1944 4 Yes
Nanking/CRB Yuan (CNPN) 1941 1945 4
Burmese Gumpyo Rupee (BUG) 1941 1945 4
Croatian Kuna (HRC) 1941 1945 4
Hong Kong Military Yen (HKG) 1941 1945 4
Philippine Gumpyo Peso (PHJ) 1941 1945 4
Japanese Military Yen (XJPM) 1941 1945 4 Yes
French Indochina Military Yen (ICFG) 1941 1945 4 Yes
Oceania Gumpyo Pound (XOGP) 1941 1945 4 Yes
Serbian Dinar (SRDD) 1941 1945 4 Yes
New Hebrides Franc (NHF) 1941 1945 4
French Franc (Allied Military Provisional) (FRP) 1944 1948 4
Djibouti CFA Franc (DJC) 1945 1949 4
Indonesia Guerilla Rupiah (IDG) 1945 1949 4
Taiwan Nationalist Yuan (TWN) 1945 1949 4 Yes
German Bekomark 1954 1958 4
German Libkamark 1954 1958 4
Ruanda-Urundi Franc (BRIF) 1960 1964 4
Algerian New Franc (DZF) 1960 1964 4
Zambian Pound (ZMP) 1964 1968 4
Congolese Zaire (CDZ) 1967 1971 4
Croatian Dinar (HRD) 1991 1995 4
Tatarstan Shamil (RUTS) 1992 1996 4
Ethiopian Birr (ETB) 1993 1997 4
Afghanistan Dostumi Afghani (AFAD) 1998 2002 4 Yes
Afghanistan Rabbini Afghani (AFAR) 1998 2002 4 Yes
Greek Phoenix (GRP) 1828 1833 5
South African Republic Pound (ZAPP) 1905 1910 5
Serbian Dinar (SRBD) 1913 1918 5
Southwest Africa Mark (NAM) 1915 1920 5
Ukraine Grivna (UAG) 1917 1922 5
Rif Republic Riffan (MARR) 1921 1926 5
Italian East Africa Lira (AOIL) 1936 1941 5
Polish Cracow Zloty (PLK) 1940 1945 5
Slovak Koruna (SKO) 1940 1945 5
Netherlands Indies Gumpyo Roepiah (IDDR) 1941 1946 5 Yes
Indonesia “Java” Rupiah (IDJ) 1945 1950 5
Indonesia “Nica” Guilder (IDD) 1945 1950 5
Romanian New Leu (RON) 1947 1952 5 Yes
Chinese Old Jen Min Piao Yuan (CNP) 1948 1953 5 Yes
Bahraini Dinar (AED) 1971 1976 5
Israel Shekel (ILL) 1980 1985 5
Zairean New Zaire (ZRN) 1993 1998 5 Yes
Angola Kwanza Reajustado (AOR) 1995 2000 5 Yes
Tajikistan Ruble (TJR) 1995 2000 5 Yes
French Livre (Assignats) (FRL) 1789 1795 6 Yes
West Indies Joe (GYJ) 1830 1836 6
Fiume Krone (FIUK) 1918 1924 6
Estonia Marka (EEM) 1918 1924 6 Yes
Bohemia and Moravia Koruna (CSM ) 1939 1945 6
Japan Military Yen (CNPY) 1939 1945 6 Yes
Germany Reichskreditkassenscheine (XDEK) 1940 1946 6
North Viet Nam Piastre Dong Viet (VDD ) 1953 1959 6 Yes
Rhodesian Pound (RHP) 1964 1970 6
Peru Inti (PEI) 1985 1991 6 Yes
Transnistrian Kupon Ruble (PDK) 1994 2000 6 Yes
Connecticut Continental Shilling (CCTS) 1776 1783 7 Yes
Delaware Continental Shilling (CDES) 1776 1783 7 Yes
Maryland Continental Shilling (CMDS) 1776 1783 7 Yes
Massachusetts Continental Shilling (CMAS) 1776 1783 7 Yes
New Jersey Continental Shilling (CNJS) 1776 1783 7 Yes
New York Continental Shilling (CNYS) 1776 1783 7 Yes
North Carolina Continental Shilling (CNCS) 1776 1783 7 Yes
Pennsylvania Continental Shilling (CPAS) 1776 1783 7 Yes
Rhode Island Continental Shilling (CRHS) 1776 1783 7 Yes
South Carolina Continental Shilling (CSCS) 1776 1783 7 Yes
Virginia Continental Shilling (CVAS) 1776 1783 7 Yes
Georgia Continental Shilling (CGAS) 1776 1783 7
New Hampshire Continental Shilling (CNHS) 1776 1783 7
Hungarian Korona (HUK) 1918 1925 7 Yes
Viet Minh Piastre Dong Viet (VDP) 1946 1953 7
Congolese Republic Franc (CDG) 1960 1967 7 Yes
Gambia Pound (GMP) 1964 1971 7
Malawi Pound (MWP) 1964 1971 7
Qatar-Dubai Riyal (XQDR) 1966 1973 7
Peseta Guineana (GQP) 1968 1975 7
Viet Nam New Dong (VNN) 1978 1985 7
Equatorial Guinea Franco (GQF) 1985 1992 7
Argentina Austral (ARA) 1985 1992 7 Yes
Russian Federation Ruble (RUR) 1991 1998 7 Yes
Belarus New Ruble (BYB) 1994 2001 7 Yes
Massachusetts Shilling Middle Tenor (CMAM) 1741 1749 8
Massachusetts Shilling New Tenor (CMAN) 1741 1749 8
New Hampshire Lawful Shilling (CNHL) 1755 1763 8
Chinese Paper Tael (CNTP) 1853 1861 8
Montenegro Perper (MEP) 1910 1918 8
Kiau Chau Dollar (JPY) 1914 1922 8
Germany Darlenskasse Ost Mark (DEOM) 1914 1922 8
Ottoman Empire Paper Lira (XOTL) 1914 1922 8
Polish Marka (PLM) 1916 1924 8
German Kreditsperrmark (DERK) 1931 1939 8 Yes
German Effektensperrmark (DERE) 1931 1939 8 Yes
Czechoslovak New Koruna (CSC) 1945 1953 8
Irian Barat Rupiah (IDIR) 1963 1971 8
Connecticut Dollar (CCTD) 1783 1792 9
Delaware Dollar (CDED) 1783 1792 9
Georgia Dollar (CGAD) 1783 1792 9
Maryland Dollar (CMDD) 1783 1792 9
Massachusetts Dollar (CMAD) 1783 1792 9
New Hampshire Dollar (CNHD) 1783 1792 9
New Jersey Dollar (CNJD) 1783 1792 9
New York Dollar (CNYD) 1783 1792 9
North Carolina Dollar (CNCD) 1783 1792 9
Pennsylvania Dollar (CPAD) 1783 1792 9
Rhode Island Dollar (CRHD) 1783 1792 9
South Carolina Dollar (CSCD) 1783 1792 9
Virginia Dollar (CVAD) 1783 1792 9
Fiji Old Dollar (FJO) 1865 1874 9
Peking/Tientsin/Northern China/FRB Yuan (CNPP) 1935 1944 9
Meng Chiang (Bank of Inner Mongolia) Yuan (CNPM) 1936 1945 9
Sinkiang Yuan (CNSY) 1939 1948 9 Yes
German Registermark (XRDERM/DERR) 1939 1948 9 Yes
German Handelsperrmark (DERH) 1939 1948 9 Yes
German Reichskreditkassenschein (XDEK) 1939 1948 9 Yes
South Korean Hwan (KRH) 1953 1962 9
Rhodesia and Nyasaland Federation Pound (RHFP) 1956 1965 9
Liberian Liberty Dollars (LRDL) 1991 2000 9
Texas Dollar (TXSD) 1836 1846 10
Austro-Hungarian Monetary Union Gulden (XATG) 1857 1867 10
Moldova Ducat (MDD) 1857 1867 10
Colombia Peso (COP) 1905 1915 10 Yes
British Military Authority Lira (LYB) 1941 1951 10 Yes
Greek New Drachma (GRN) 1944 1954 10 Yes
India Haj Pilgrimage Rupee (XINP) 1950 1960 10
Somali Somalo (SOIS) 1950 1960 10
Bulgarian Socialist Lev (BGM) 1952 1962 10
French Affars and Issas Franc (AIF) 1967 1977 10
Rhodesian Dollar (RHD/ZWC) 1970 1980 10
Angola Kwanza Novo (AON) 1990 2000 10 Yes
Angola Escudo Portuguese (AOE) 1914 1925 11
Saar Franc (SAAF) 1919 1930 11
Spanish Republican Peseta (ESPR) 1931 1942 11
Persian Gulf Rupee (XPGR) 1959 1970 11
Reunion Nouveau Franc (REN) 1963 1974 11
Ekuele (Epkwele) Guineana (GQE) 1975 1986 11
Liberian JJ Dollars (LRDJ) 1989 2000 11
German Behelfszahlungsmittel fuer die Deutsche Wehrmacht (XDEB) 1936 1948 12 Yes
North Korea People’s Won (KPP) 1947 1959 12 Yes
Albanian Lek Foreign Exchange Certificates (ALX) 1953 1965 12
Saint Pierre CFA Nouveau Franc (XCF) 1960 1972 12
Ghana Revalued Cedi (GHR) 1967 1979 12
New Hampshire Colonial Shilling (CNHC) 1763 1776 13
Rhode Island Colonial Shilling (CRHC) 1763 1776 13
Ecuador Peso (ECP) 1871 1884 13
Soviet Chervonetz (SUC) 1922 1935 13
Manchukuo Yuan (CNMY) 1932 1945 13
Netherlands New Guinea Guilder (NNGG) 1950 1963 13
Argentina Peso Ley 18.188 (ARL) 1970 1983 13
Iraqi “Swiss print” Kurdistan Dinar (IQDS) 1991 2004 13
South German Vereinsgulden (XDSG) 1857 1871 14
Venezuela Venezolano (VEV) 1873 1887 14
Soviet New Ruble (SUM) 1947 1961 14
Guinea Franc (GNI) 1958 1972 14
Nigerian Pound (NGP) 1959 1973 14
Somali Scellino (SOS) 1960 1974 14
Guinea Syli (GNS/GNE) 1972 1986 14
Angola Kwanza (AOK) 1977 1991 14
Connecticut Shilling New Tenor (CCTN) 1740 1755 15
Argentina Peso Fuerte (ARF) 1860 1875 15
Colombian Gold Peso (COG) 1871 1886 15
Crete Drachma (GKD) 1898 1913 15
East Africa Rupee (XEAR) 1905 1920 15
Burmese Rupee (BUR) 1937 1952 15
French Antilles Franc (XNF) 1960 1975 15
Chilean Escudo (CLE) 1960 1975 15 Yes
Sudanese Dinar (SDD) 1992 2007 15 Yes
US Paper Dollar (USP) 1862 1878 16
Bulgarian Lev Srebro (BGS) 1904 1920 16
Italian Somaliland Rupiah (SOIR) 1909 1925 16
Saudi Arabian Riyal (SAA) 1916 1932 16
Danzig Gulden (DZGG) 1923 1939 16
German Rentenmark (DEN) 1923 1939 16
Estonia Kroon (EEN) 1924 1940 16
Saudi Sovereign Riyal (SAS) 1936 1952 16
Southern Rhodesian Currency Board Pound (RHSP) 1940 1956 16
Saint Pierre CFA Franc (XCFG) 1943 1959 16 Yes
Indonesia New Rupiah (IDN) 1949 1965 16 Yes
British Caribbean Territories (Eastern Group) Dollar (XBCD) 1951 1967 16
Timor Escudo (TPE) 1959 1975 16
US Continental Dollar (USC) 1775 1792 17 Yes
Spanish Real/Peso Duro (ESR) 1847 1864 17
Puerto Rican Peso (PRS) 1881 1898 17
Kiau Chau Dollar (KCHD) 1897 1914 17
Shanghai Dollar (CNDA) 1914 1931 17
Peking Dollar (CNDB) 1914 1931 17
Hankow Dollar (CNDH) 1914 1931 17
Kansu Dollar (CNDK) 1914 1931 17
Kwangtung Dollar (CNDG) 1914 1931 17
Manchurian Dollar (CNDM) 1914 1931 17
Heilungkiang Tiao (CNHT) 1914 1931 17
Kirin Tiao (CNKT) 1914 1931 17
Shantung Dollar (CNDS) 1914 1931 17
Szechwan Dollar (CNDZ) 1914 1931 17
Chinese Soviet Yuan (CNSD) 1931 1948 17
Italian States Franco (XITF) 1798 1816 18
Riksdaler Riksmynt (SEM) 1855 1873 18
Latvia Lat (LVA) 1922 1940 18
Lithuanian Lita (LTB) 1922 1940 18
Italian Lira (XITL) 1925 1943 18
Chinese Custom Gold Units (CNU) 1930 1948 18
Djibouti Franc (DJA ) 1949 1967 18
Angolan Escudo (AOS) 1958 1976 18 Yes
Uruguay Peso Nuevo (UYP/UYN) 1975 1993 18 Yes
South German Gulden (XDEG) 1838 1857 19
North German Thaler (XDET) 1838 1857 19
Albanian Lek (ALK) 1946 1965 19
North Viet Nam New Dong (VDN/VNC) 1959 1978 19
Brazil Cruzeiro Novo (BRB) 1967 1986 19 Yes
Congo CFA Franc (COF) 1973 1992 19
Gabon CFA Franc (GAF) 1973 1992 19
Chinese US Dollar Foreign Exchange Certificates (CNX) 1979 1998 19
Czechoslovak Pre-War Koruna (CSO) 1919 1939 20
Belgian Belga (BEB) 1925 1945 20
Madagascar Franc (MGG) 1925 1945 20
Libyan Pound (LYP) 1951 1971 20
Cambodia Old Riel (KHO) 1955 1975 20
South Viet Nam Republic Dong (VNR) 1955 1975 20 Yes
Bulgarian Lev Foreign Exchange Certificates (BGX) 1966 1986 20
Luxembourg Convertible Franc (LUC) 1970 1990 20
Guinea-Bissau Peso (GWP) 1976 1996 20
New Hampshire Shilling New Tenor (CNHN) 1742 1763 21
Connecticut Colonial Shilling (CCTC) 1755 1776 21
Russian Gold Ruble (RUER) 1897 1918 21
Albania Franga (ALF) 1925 1946 21
Hungarian Pengoe (HUP) 1925 1946 21 Yes
Laos Old Kip (LAO) 1955 1976 21
Ghana Pound (GHP) 1958 1979 21
Uganda Shilling (UGS/UGW) 1966 1987 21 Yes
Mali Franc (MLF/MAF) 1962 1984 22
Zairean Zaire (ZRZ) 1971 1993 22 Yes
Luxembourg Thaler (LUT) 1848 1871 23
Yugoslav Serbian Dinar (YUS) 1918 1941 23
Mozambique Libra Esterlina (MZL) 1919 1942 23
Tanu Tuva Aksha (TVAA) 1921 1944 23
Soviet Gold Ruble (SUG) 1924 1947 23
Palestine Pound (PSP) 1927 1950 23
Bolivian Peso (BOP) 1963 1986 23 Yes
Brazil Mil Reis (BRM) 1822 1846 24 Yes
Central American Escudo (XCAE) 1823 1847 24
Sinkiang Tael (CNST) 1912 1936 24
Yunnan Yuan (CNYY) 1912 1936 24
Austria Old Schilling (ATO) 1923 1947 24
German Reichsmark (DER) 1924 1948 24 Yes
Yugoslav Hard Dinar (YUD) 1966 1990 24 Yes
Paper Riksdaler Banco (SEO) 1830 1855 25
Austro-Hungarian Gulden (ATG) 1867 1892 25
Colombia Paper Peso (COB) 1880 1905 25 Yes
Malaya Dollar (MYAD) 1938 1963 25
South Yemeni Dinar (YDD) 1965 1990 25
Austro-Hungarian Kronen (ATK) 1892 1918 26 Yes
Massachusetts Colonial Shilling (CMAC) 1749 1776 27
German East African Rupie (DOAR) 1890 1917 27
Maryland Colonial New Shilling (CMDN) 1748 1776 28
North Carolina Shilling New Tenor (CNCN) 1748 1776 28
South Carolina Colonial Shilling (CSCC) 1748 1776 28
Zanzibar Rupee (ZZR) 1908 1936 28
Lebanon-Syria Pound (XLSP) 1920 1948 28
New Jersey Colonial Shilling (CNJC) 1746 1776 30
Haiti Silver Gourde (HTS) 1814 1844 30
British West Indies Dollar (XBWD) 1935 1965 30
Madagascar and Comores CFA Franc (XMCF) 1945 1975 30
Polish US Dollar Foreign Exchange Certificates (PLX) 1960 1990 30
Soviet Hard Ruble (SUR) 1961 1991 30
Rhode Island Proclamation Shilling (CRHP) 1709 1740 31
Rhode Island Shilling New Tenor (CRHN) 1740 1771 31
Guyana British West Indies Dollar (XBWD) 1935 1966 31
Ethiopian Dollar (ETD) 1945 1976 31
French Indochina Piastre of Commerce (ICFC) 1863 1895 32
Cameroon Mark (CMDM) 1884 1916 32
Angola Angolar (AOA) 1926 1958 32
Israel Pound (ILP) 1948 1980 32
COMECON Transferable Ruble (XTR) 1960 1992 32
Tunisian Franc (TNF) 1858 1891 33 Yes
Colombia Peso Oro (COE) 1837 1871 34
Mozambique Mil Reis (MZR) 1877 1911 34
Maldive Islands Rupee (MVP/MVQ) 1947 1981 34
Somalia Shilling (SOS) 1960 1994 34 Yes
Korea Yen (KROY) 1910 1945 35
New Hebrides CFP Franc (NHF) 1945 1981 36
North Korea Foreign Won (KPX) 1959 1995 36
Dutch Gulden (BRG) 1624 1661 37
Burmese Kyat (BUK) 1952 1989 37
Bulgarian Heavy Lev (BGL/BGK) 1962 1999 37 Yes
Haiti Piastre Gourde (HTT) 1776 1814 38
Union Latine Franc (XULF) 1889 1927 38
Union Latine Lira (XULL) 1889 1927 38
Ethiopian Silver Talari (ETT) 1893 1931 38
Netherlands Indies Gumpyo Gulden (NIDJ) 1905 1943 38
Djibouti Franc Germinal (DJG) 1907 1945 38
North Carolina Proclamation Shilling (CNCP) 1709 1748 39
Rial Hassani (MAH) 1881 1920 39
Tibet Silver Rupee (TBR) 1912 1951 39
Finland New Markka (FIM) 1963 2002 39
Paraguay Paper Peso (PYP) 1903 1943 40 Yes
Czechoslovak Hard Koruna (CSK) 1953 1993 40
French Franc (FRF) 1962 2002 40
Georgia Colonial Shilling (CGAC) 1735 1776 41
Philippine Peso Fuerte (PHF) 1857 1898 41
Ottoman Empire Gold Lira (XOTG) 1881 1922 41
South African Pound (ZAP) 1920 1961 41
Sudanese Pound (SDP) 1957 1998 41
Malagasy Franc (MGF) 1963 2004 41
Maryland Proclamation Shilling (CMDP) 1709 1751 42
Italian States Ducat (XITD) 1818 1860 42
Peru Peso (PEP) 1821 1863 42
DDR Ostmark (DDM) 1948 1990 42
East Caribbean Dollar (XCD) 1965 2008 43
Sao Tome and Principe Mil Reis (STM) 1869 1913 44
Bulgarian Lev Zlato (BGZ) 1880 1924 44
Tangier Franco (MATF) 1912 1956 44
Polish Heavy Zloty (PLZ) 1950 1994 44 Yes
South Carolina Proclamation Shilling (CSCP) 1703 1748 45
Massachusetts Old Tenor Proclamation Shilling (CMAP) 1704 1749 45
Cape Verde Mil Reis (CVM) 1869 1914 45 Yes
Serbian Dinar (SRBD) 1873 1918 45
Finland Markka (FIN) 1917 1962 45 Yes
Tonga Pound Sterling (TOS) 1921 1966 45
Brazil Cruzeiro (BRZ) 1942 1987 45 Yes
Connecticut Shilling Old Tenor (CCTO) 1709 1755 46
Argentina National Peso (XARP) 1816 1862 46 Yes
Hawaii Dollar (HWD) 1847 1893 46
Afghanistan Kabuli Rupee (AFR) 1881 1927 46
French West African Franc (XAOF) 1895 1941 46
East Africa Shilling (XEAS) 1921 1967 46
Haiti Paper Gourde (HTP) 1826 1873 47
Luxembourg Mark (LUM) 1871 1918 47
New Caledonia CFP Franc (NCF) 1945 1992 47
Costa Rican Peso (CRP) 1848 1896 48
South Korean Old Won (KRO) 1905 1953 48 Yes
Greek Drachma (GRD) 1954 2002 48
North German Vereinsthaler (XDNT) 1857 1907 50
Yugoslav Federation Dinar (YUF) 1945 1995 50 Yes
Chinese Silver Yin Yuan (CNS) 1949 2000 51
Paraguay Peso Fuerte (PYF) 1871 1923 52
Scandinavian Monetary Union Krona (XSMK) 1872 1924 52
Trinidad and Tobago Dollar (TTO) 1899 1951 52
Fiji Pound (FJP) 1917 1969 52
Delaware Colonial Shilling (CDEC) 1723 1776 53
Italian States Lira Austriaca (XITA) 1813 1866 53
German Mark (DEP) 1871 1924 53 Yes
British West Africa Pound 1913 1966 53
Western Samoa Pound (WSP) 1914 1967 53
New Hampshire Old Tenor Proclamation Shilling (CNHP) 1709 1763 54 Yes
Riksdaler Specie (SES) 1776 1830 54
Paper Riksdaler (SER) 1776 1830 54
Argentina Gold Peso (ARG) 1875 1929 54
Taiwan Yen (TWY) 1895 1949 54
Maltese Pound (MTP) 1914 1968 54
German Deutsche Mark (DEM) 1948 2002 54
Austria (New) Schilling (ATS) 1947 2002 55
Italian States Scudo (XITS) 1814 1870 56
Bermuda Pound (BMP) 1914 1970 56
Paraguay National Peso (PYN) 1813 1870 57
French Oceania (Tahiti) Franc (PFG) 1888 1945 57
Australian Pound (AUP) 1909 1966 57
Montenegro Krone (MEK) 1852 1910 58
Chinese Dollar/Yuan (Chungking/Shanghai Yuan) (CND) 1890 1948 58
Mozambique Escudo (MZE) 1922 1980 58
Union Latine Drachma (XULD) 1868 1927 59
Union Latine Peseta (XULP) 1868 1927 59
Danish Rigsbankdaler (DKR) 1813 1873 60
Greenland Riksbankdaler (GLR) 1813 1873 60
New Zealand Pound (NZP) 1907 1967 60
Dominican Republic Silver Peso (DOS) 1844 1905 61
British North Borneo Dollar (BNBD) 1885 1946 61
Massachusetts Bay Shilling (CMAB) 1642 1704 62
Union Latine Franc (XULF) 1865 1927 62
Union Latine Franc (XULF) 1865 1927 62
Union Latine Franc (XULF) 1865 1927 62
Union Latine Lira (XULL) 1865 1927 62
Portuguese Guinea Escudo (GWE) 1914 1976 62
Iceland Old Krone (ISJ) 1918 1980 62 Yes
Timor Pataca (TPP) 1895 1958 63
Sao Tome and Principe Escudo (STE) 1914 1977 63
Andorra Pesseta (ADP) 1936 1999 63
Suriname Guilder (SRG) 1940 2003 63 Yes
New Jersey Proclamation Shilling (CNJP) 1682 1746 64
Jamaica Pound (JMP) 1905 1969 64
Danish West Indies Rigsdaler (DWIR) 1784 1849 65
Nicaragua Silver Peso (NIP) 1847 1912 65
Mauritius Dollar (MUD) 1810 1876 66
New York Proclamation Shilling (CNYP) 1709 1776 67
Pennsylvania Proclamation Dollar (CPAP) 1709 1776 67
Virginia Proclamation Shilling (CVAP) 1709 1776 67
New Caledonia Franc Germinal (NCG) 1874 1941 67
Danish West Indies Dalare (DWID) 1849 1917 68
Luxembourg Gulden (LUG) 1848 1918 70
Argentina Paper Peso Moneda National (ARM) 1899 1970 71 Yes
Portuguese Account Conto (PTC) 1931 2002 71
El Salvador Peso (SVP) 1847 1919 72
Bulgarian Lev (BGO) 1879 1952 73 Yes
Vatican City Lira (VAL) 1929 2002 73
Russian Assignatzia (RUEA) 1768 1843 75
Russian Silver Ruble (RUES) 1839 1914 75
Russian Paper Ruble (RUEP) 1843 1918 75
Belgian Congo Franc (CBEF) 1885 1960 75
Afghanistan Afghani (AFA) 1927 2002 75 Yes
Madeira Islands Milreis (IPM) 1834 1910 76
Portuguese Mil Reis (PTM) 1835 1911 76
Nicaragua Gold Cordoba (NIG) 1912 1988 76 Yes
Ceylon Rupee (LNR) 1872 1949 77
Guatemala Peso (GTP) 1847 1925 78
Portuguese India Rupia (INPR) 1881 1959 78
Moroccan Franc (MAF) 1881 1959 78 Yes
Colombia Peso Oro (COP) 1915 1993 78 Yes
Honduras Peso (HNP) 1847 1926 79
Romania Silver Leu (ROS) 1867 1947 80 Yes
British Honduras Dollar (BZH) 1894 1974 80
Irish Pound (IEP) 1922 2002 80
Sarawak Dollar (SWKD) 1863 1946 83
Turkish Lira (TRL) 1922 2005 83 Yes
German States Convention Thaler (XDCT) 1753 1838 85
Straits Settlements Dollar (STSD) 1857 1946 89
Portuguese Escudo (PTE) 1911 2002 91
Pound Sterling (CAP ) 1766 1858 92
Reunion Franc Germinal (REG) 1851 1944 93
Hyderabad Sicca Rupee (INRH) 1858 1951 93
French Indochina Piastre (ICFP) 1862 1955 93
Newfoundland Dollar (NFLD) 1858 1952 94
Greenland Krone (GLK) 1873 1967 94
Polish Zloty (XPLZ) 1700 1795 95
Taiwan Tael/Dollar (TWT) 1800 1895 95
Portuguese Guinea Mil Reis (GWM) 1879 1974 95
Bahamas Pound (BSP) 1869 1966 97
Russian Empire Paper Ruble (RUEP) 1818 1917 99
Bolivia Boliviano (BOL) 1863 1962 99 Yes
Danish Rigsdaler Courant (DKC) 1713 1813 100
Austro-Hungarian Convention Gulden (XATC) 1753 1857 104
East India Rix Dollar (XEIR) 1800 1905 105
Manx Pound (IMP) 1865 1971 106
Iranian Kran (IRK) 1825 1932 107
Franc Guiana (GUF) 1851 1959 108
Guadeloupe Franc (GPF) 1851 1959 108
Martinique Franc (MQF) 1851 1959 108
Algerian Franc Germinal (DZG) 1851 1959 108 Yes
Chilean Peso/Condor (CLC) 1851 1959 108 Yes
Daler Silvermynt (SED) 1665 1776 111
Greek Silver Drachma (GRS) 1833 1944 111 Yes
Uruguay Peso Fuerte (UYF) 1862 1975 113 Yes
Paper Daler (SEP) 1661 1776 115
Ecuador Sucre (ECS) 1884 2000 116
Luxembourg Financial Franc (LUL) 1870 1991 121
Monaco Franc Germinal (MCG) 1837 1959 122
Peru Sol (PES/PEH) 1863 1985 122 Yes
Silver Piastre/Peso (XESE) 1700 1823 123
Brazil Reis (BRD) 1694 1822 128 Yes
Thailand Silver Tical (THT) 1800 1928 128
Netherlands East Indies Guilder (IDDG) 1817 1945 128
Jersey Pound Sterling (JEP) 1840 1971 131
Spanish Peseta (ESP) 1868 2002 134
Italian States Scudo Romano (XITS) 1700 1835 135
Colonial Shilling (XCCS) 1640 1776 136
San Marino Lira (SML) 1865 2001 136
Venezuela Bolivar (VEB) 1871 2008 137 Yes
East India Company Dollar (XEID) 1719 1858 139
Austrian Paper Gulden (ATP) 1753 1892 139
Italian Lira (ITL) 1862 2002 140
Newfoundland Pound (NFLP) 1713 1858 145
Bukhara Tenga (BKHT) 1768 1920 152
Portuguese Reis (PRT) 1505 1658 153
Luxembourg Franc (LUF) 1848 2002 154
French Franc Germinal/Franc Poincare (FRG) 1803 1959 156 Yes
Azores Milreis (APM) 1750 1911 161
Ceylon Rijksdaalder (Rix Dollar) (XNLR) 1658 1821 163
French Colonial Livre (XFCL) 1654 1820 166
Mexico Silver Peso (MXP) 1822 1992 170 Yes
Belgian Franc (BEF) 1831 2002 171
Tibet Tangka (TBT) 1735 1912 177
Poland Florin Zloty (PLF) 1614 1795 181
Portuguese Reis (PTR) 1722 1911 189 Yes
Netherlands Guilder (NLG) 1813 2002 189
Danish Gold Krone of Account (DKG) 1513 1713 200
French India Roupie (INFR) 1736 1954 218
Scotland Pound (SSP) 1707 1971 264
Northern Irish Pound (IBP) 1694 1971 277
Korea Won (KROW) 1625 1910 285
Italian States Testone (XITT) 1500 1814 314
Iranian Toman (IRT) 1600 1932 332
Mexican Trade Silver Dollar (XMSD) 1600 1935 335
Chinese Silver Tael (CNT) 1600 1935 335 Yes
Hamburg Schilling (HAMS) 1510 1871 361
Ottoman Empire Piastre (XOTP) 1463 1881 418
Italian States Lira (XITL) 1284 1862 578
French Livre Tournois (FRT) 1204 1795 591 Yes

 

It should be noted that ALL fiat currencies go to zero.

“Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value – zero.”
--Voltaire, 1694-1778

But, my argument isn't fiat currencies can not work. I'm not saying that at all. I'm not arguing people should use gold and silver. Even if these metals have been used as money for 5000 years and have an intrinsic value. I'm not saying that either.

My argument is this: Initiation of force against an innocent person is immoral.

Now, if you (or anyone) don't like the implications of that statement, that's fine - but that's ALL I'm saying. This then means it is IMMORAL for the State to impose an Income Tax on workers and make it a crime to sell their labor without paying a tax to the State on that transaction. This is immoral. I don't care what you want to spend the income tax money on, you can spend it on war (and most of it is), you can spend it on roads, you can spend it on prisons to put people who smoke a weed they found in their yard, you can spend it on ObamaCare, you can spend it on teachers who graduate functionally illiterate children and pay themselves a bonus 13th month - it really doesn't matter to me. It is immoral. Done and done.

 

Oh, and seeing as in you were cherry picking history to suggest it's impossible not to have free-market currency (that is non-fiat currency), I'm going to post an example of a society that did just that. They couldn't have a fiat currency, because they had no central government with the legal ability to initiate force against members of their society to create a fiat currency - and ANY State currency. They existed for over 1000 years and were the jewel of Europe until conquered by a warmonger State - the same State that murdered it's way through the North Americas and gave birth to the United States, the English State.

Just as one example of a black swan, disproves all swans are white. One example of a successful anarchy, using free-market currency, disproves the theory people can not successful manage an economy using free-market currency.

1,000 years of Irish Anarchy

​

 

I'd also like to note, as I've made clear time and time again, that when I talk about a "society" using competing currencies, I'm referring to one based on people who were raised peacefully (non-aggression principle) and taught to think logically (secularly not superstitious) as children. It must have these four aspects: Law, Private Property, Sound-Money and a Free-Market.

Did you actually read about the one's on your list? All of the one's I've looked up are either Theocratic Communists or Communists. You may be surprised to know this, but Communists don't believe in private property. It's all part of the 'collective'.

Examples:

(#1)
Icarians
Karl Marx's vision of a perfect worker's utopia was strongly influenced by both Cabet's idealism and by the proof of it as a working reality in Illinois and Iowa.
(SEE: The Communistic Societies of the United States, by Charles Nordhoff, [1875], at [sacred-texts.com])

Does that sound like ANYTHING NEAR what I've described??? Talk about apples and oranges. These people are religious AND communist!

(#2)
Sodus Bay Phalanx
This the The United Society of Believers in Christ’s Second Appearing, also known as the Shakers, and is a religious sect. Founded upon the teachings of Ann Lee.

Are you serious Billy T? I'm pulling out the ones that I thought might not be religious - haven't found one yet.


I mean, if you're just going to list a bunch of failed religious communities and orders, then why not also list
- The Amish?
- The Quakers?
- The Mennonites?
- The Masonic Order?
... I know there's a fundamentalist Jewish society in New York state. Why not list them?

(#3)
Oneida Community
A religious commune founded by John Humphrey Noyes in 1848 in Oneida, New York. The community believed that Jesus had already returned in AD 70, making it possible for them to bring about Jesus's millennial kingdom themselves.


(#4)
Home
Home is a Census-Designated Place in Pierce County, Washington, United States. The 2010 Census placed the population at 1,377. The community lies on the Key Peninsula and borders the waters of Carr Inlet, an extension of Puget Sound. Home is now primarily a town of beach homes, although around the turn of the twentieth century, it was considered a model, utopian community of anarchists. In 1919 the Association was dissolved and the anarchist community, as it was, ended


Finally, so here we go. We have a small group of people in the 1800s who attempted to live in an anarchic society. It seems to have started peacefully and ended peacefully (due to some pressure from outside as well as divisions in the community). OK? AND??? This is perfectly fine. It didn't work, but that's OK. Lot's of stuff doesn't work the first time it's tried. Edison went through 14,000 lightbulb attempts before one worked. The point is NOT to initiate force against innocent people.



There probably is no way I can change your opinion. However, I want it to be clear, I'm arguing for a society structured around peaceful interaction, and in time this is likely to happen. You may not think it likely, but that's your belief. I can say one thing, so long as most people think it's not possible, it's not likely it will happen. I just happen to be an optimist on this topic. I think as people become more interconnected many institutions will no longer be needed - including sociopathic-led governments.

 

Agreed - only an indication that if something fails 1000+ times, one should expect it to fail next time it is tried. And like the expectation that there will be a sunrise tomorrow, most base on the historical record, but some on the physical law (conservation of Earth's angular momentum, in this case) there is rational or logical reason why societies ALWAYS need "central authorities."

I.e. humans living in groups (as they always do, being very social animals) need and always establish some "central authority" like the chief of the Indian tribe, etc. as conflicts between the member of the group benefit from some peaceful resolution by that central authority. Man is trying to progress to where there is only one central authority on the planet, but the current efforts, the UN, is too weak to prevent wars, so many conflicts are still resolved by violent means.

No, not just precious metals can be stable money. Anything universally desired and with natural limits to supply can be sound money. Also note that nothing has "intrinsic value" - what is desired can and does change. For example in the "new world" before the Spanish came, there was too much gold for its only use, jewelry, by the native, and there were no horses, so the native Indians would gladly give fists full of "worthless" gold for a very useful horse. When the Spaniards captured their tribal leader, it took a few weeks but the tribe filled a large room with the nearly useless gold to set him free, but as I recall (from history books) the Spaniards then killed him instead. Some coral islands with no real stones, have used the stones left there that arrived as ship's ballasts as money. (When the ship was full of bread fruit or gold etc. there was no longer need for stone ballast.)

Back when kerosene was the valuable fraction of petroleum (replacing whale oil for lamps) some suppliers of it would cheat and mix in some gasoline as it had essentially no value - quite a few people were injured by "exploding kerosene." When the Washington Monument was being completed after years of (civil war, I think) delay they put on the very top (still there today) a tiny pyramid of the most valuable metal that existed, more than 10 times more precious than gold. Now because of technology change (Hall was the inventor) many throw in the trash each week more of that metal than is sitting on the top of the Washington Monument, which we call "aluminum." Again: nothing has "intrinsic value."

But to return to the point: Yes I expect the dollar to collapse, like those you have listed, because it always has when fiat currency has been printed far in excess of the needs of commerce. Not a logical necessity, I agree, just a long run (as you listed) of cases where it did.

 

You have given that example before, and I have agreed that in a feudal society (essentially only local production and consumption) there is no need for wide ranging central authority money as ALL mass production and wide regional or national markets require and always have.

Yes we could, as I have noted before, eliminate national currencies and return to only local production and consumption, where a few (> 0.01 %) enjoy the labors of the many, perhaps nearly 1% are artisans supplying the few with the whims they happen to desire (wood carvings, paintings, fine lace, etc.) and others, the necessity of life, mainly food and winter fuel but I don't desire that as chances are I would be in the 99% who are serfs, not allowed to leave the land I was born on.

Fortunately, man has progressed from the feudal to "nation state" level of social organization which makes efficient production via mass production and industrialized agriculture of cheap food possible. Unfortunately, man is not yet to the level of social integration which makes war impossible. We are making progress towards that. For example Germany and France will not make violent war on each other every few dozen years as they did for more than a 1000 years with rare exceptions, when integrated by one strong man like Charlemagne or briefly by Napoleon.

BTW, there were many dozens of these local feudal societies, not just the one in Ireland.
But please don't bring it up again. If you do, and I bother to reply, it will be only a link to this post.

 

Or at least some generally agreed upon means of settling disputes.

A tribe typically has a leader (perhaps several, such as a clan's elder patriarch and a war leader), but it's simulateneously something like a rude warrior democracy in the sense that the top-most power can only retain authority by keeping his warriors loyal.

I think that as in so much else in life, the optimum social state is probably a negotiable midpoint between unpleasant extremes. In this case between all-against-all anarchy on one side, and pure authoritarianism on the other.

Overarching institutions are obviously valuable in many different contexts, including the planet itself in this age of increased globalization, but it's equally important to ensure that top-down elite power remains dependent on the continued support of at least some critical mass of the still-potent smaller powers that the highest power embraces.

 

you need to start readinf real history and not libertarian history. in the time period quoted their were multiple Irish kingdoms. their was nothing anarchistic about the celtic peoples. they formed strong countries for hundreds of years, this is just another attempt at libertarians trying to rewrite history to try and prove their notions are successful rather than the abject failures they are.

 

I don't think it's true "It takes money, to make money".

It takes trade to 'make' money. You can trade labor for money, and get the money, without having started out with any money at all.


When you say "wealth naturally concentrates" you seem to suggest that (a) there's only so much 'wealth' to go around and as some people get more of it, other's get less (zero sum game) and (b) you also suggest it's a bad thing to have wealth concentrate.

For example:
(1) Concentration of wealth
Suppose the Japanese were becoming much much much more wealthy relative to North Korea in the 1970-80s. AND?! Is this somehow BAD for the North Koreans? Maybe. But, it may be exactly the opposite. IF North Korea opened up trade with Japan and Afghanistan - then Japan's higher concentration of wealth is actually BETTER for North Korean's because the Japanese will have the capital to buy (trade) with North Koreans - thereby allowing North Koreans to become more wealthy through trade.
(2) Zero Sum Game
You suggest as the 'wealth' concentrates the poor are left with no money to do anything with - this seems, again, to be making the mistake of zero sum game (win-lose). This is the thing about free-trade, it isn't win-lose, it's win-win. Why would anyone agree to a trade where they loose out? They wouldn't. Can you give me an example of a win-lose trade that occurs in a truly free-market?

 

Firstly, at the time all societies were feudal.

Secondly, not having a central authority has nothing at all to do with local production. In an anarchy, you'd still have division of labor! I don't know where you get this idea that an anarchic society must remain small and local. That's not true. If you happen to have a good or service people want. Suppose someone in an anarchic society developed a drug that cured diabetes - they could trade this drug with people from all over the world, not only in their own small community.

Thirdly, in terms of 'currency competition'. Sea-Shells, Iron, Bronze, Silver and Gold are all various different currencies - yet people from about 5000 BCE (7000 years ago) where able to use these different currencies exchanging them all with one another across large multicultural empires and between empires. Even when the Chinese introduced fiat silk currency, that then traded with those other forms of currency.

So, again, I'm really not sure what you're on about here.

Fourthly, the USA did perfectly fine without Income Tax - during that time, the USA was the wealthiest in the world and ushered in the second industrial revolution, and conducted international trade. Sadly, income tax and fiat currency, is being used to transfer wealth from the middle class to the top 1%. But, this is the thing, most people don't think of income tax as a way to redistribute wealth. Most middle-class Americans just pay it. They have no idea what it's being use for. Much of it is being used to pay the interest on a previous generations' goodies. Imagine you're a 22 year old, much of your income tax is being used to pay for the interest on loans made to pay for babyboomer's subsidized university 30 years ago. Further, if it's really about redistributing wealth, then why not ONLY tax the top 10% an income tax and redistribute that wealth to the poorest 20%? The fact is, income tax is about taxing the middle class to pay for things that should be provided by a private 'free market' industry - which would do a much much better job.


Fifthly, we shouldn't confuse anarchy with free market currency. While it's not possible to have a fiat currency in an anarchy as there's not central government to force-back the currency, it IS possible for a state to use free-market currency.

 

I had explained both in words and mathematical models that as all have certain necessary expenses (food, shelter, and clothing) that the rich have much greater share of their income left after theses expenses than the poor do so they invested and earned that way, much more than they gained by salaries. My statement: "It takes money, to make money" was only intended as a popular, often used, summary of this truth - the rich get richer because they are rich. I did not intend it to say that investments were the only way to make money. Certainly a good car mechanic, by his labors and knowledge about car defects, makes money, but not the millions annually received by the major owners of the factories that sold him the parts he uses.

It is also true that as time passes, the total wealth in society normally increases, even the number of dollars in the car mechanic's bank account may, but his ability to share in the goods and services the society produces declines while that of the rich increases. This is why some form of COMPULSARY redistribution of wealth (from rich to poor) is necessary for social stability. Typically that redistribution is via progressive income and /or inheritances taxes. If it does not occur, eventually there is violent redistribution.

I have explained all this to you before, even noting that some philanthropies will voluntarily give wealth to the poor, but unless ALL wealthy do, then wealth will concentrate more and more rapidly in the hands of those who don't, but use all their wealth to make even more money. As usually you ignore truths you don't like or make diversions related to them (Like one can earn money by their labors too.)

It is unfortunately true that the very poor are born in debt and most never are debt free, but live on public welfare and the generosity of some; However, I agree that free-trade is a win-win exchange, but most of the benefits do go DISPROPORTIONALY to the already wealthy. For example the owners of the factory making the exported goods, not the workers laboring in the factory. Again you ignore truths that you don't like.

 

True. That shows in a feudal society, even if they have a local currency (instead of only barter) there is no need for central authority mandating redistribution of wealth. The serfs, tied to the land have no currency or means to store up wealth, and never (or almost never) are able to organize and revolt against their gross exploitation.

"division of labor" yes: Some serfs are better hunters and others are better farmers but the only exportation that feudal society can do to other feudal society is via a COMMOM currency (often gold) or by barter.

The effects of which still linger, sometimes. For example in modern Brazil salted cod fish is made into a premium dish. This is because the Portuguese settled Brazil (We don't speak Spanish like all the rest of S. America does.) and brought their ideas about the most desirable foods with them. In the middle ages, the Vikings boats took salted cod fish to what is now Portugal and returned home with barrels of olive oil, which they needed for cooking. -- Direct barter as neither had much gold. It was not yet being stolen in great volumes from the Indians of S. America. The Portugese were more interested in cutting down one type of tree as its wood could make a very valuable dye (used by the well off, including royalty) for fine clothes. That tree, is very rare in Brazil now, but that is where the name "Brazil" comes from - it was then (and still is) called the brazil tree.

Trade is greatly facilitated if a common currency exists as then you don't need to find some one with need for what you have in excess who also has in excess something you need. (like the cod for cooking oil barter.) You can sell your excess to anyone with a the common currency and use it later to buy from someone else what you need.
As you noted, trade is a win-win exchange MADE EASY WHEN A COMMON CURRENCY EXISTS.

No, it is true as just re-explained to you again. Without a common currency that both parties to the trade recognize is a store of value only direct barter is possible, not mass production and global trade.

For example, given before, some S. Sea coral islands use the rocks that once were a ship's ballast as their currency, but no where in Europe (feudal or modern) can you pay for anything with a rock. Again (trying to get thur your silly ideology): A common, widely used currency is needed for global trade and mass production (or a well establish foreign exchange system, but normally one currency is dominate and used by all - the dollar is at present)

True a tiny volume of the buying and selling of foreign goods (compared to local buying and selling) can and did take place in the feudal ages, mostly by exchange of precious metals (a common currency) but efficient mass production was not possible. It is my understanding that Marco Polo paid the Chinese makers of silk he (and others later) brought back to Europe with gold. Certainly the silk had value for making nice clothes. Can you document this Flat Silk Currency had any value as a currency in Europe?

That depends on what you mean by "perfectly fine" I.e. with the extremes concentration of wealth, yes the robber barons (who sometimes shot their workers on pay day, rather than pay them, as I documented in prior post.) and the factory owners exploiting sub teenagers did do "very well" and some did "conduct international trade", getting paid in gold usually if not by barter deal.

Not accurate. Even after GWB's tax relief for the wealthy, the progress income tax does do some redistribution of wealth - just no longer an adequate amount, so wealth is accumulation in the hands of very few, and "Joe American's" purchasing power is now declining. This was not true pre- GWB, i.e. under Clinton.

First it is the facts, not what the people understand that are important. I agree that few understand the progressive income tax scales as part (a major part) of the absolutely essential for stable societies, "wealth re-distribution." On your second point, I have many posts pointing out that the mass's ignorance (caused by local funding of pre-college schools) instead of nation-wide federal funding like in Scandinavia, where ALL have an excellent educational opportunity, is responsible for the un-payable debt. I.e. as was pointed out in1832 in Democracy in America the masses have a very poor understanding of the cost of debt. How destructive it is when done to the excessive scale the US has done since GWB reduced taxes on the rich. They vote for whom ever promises more "goodies now" with the bill to be sent to future generations.

I suspect your false, defective, ideology makes you support local funding of poor schools for the masses whose parents are not well off enough to live in rich neighbor hoods that can pay teachers well (so get the best) and have computers for all to use, etc. Is that your POV? - note that is my only direct question - please answer - don't ignore that too.

So you say, but if they would, without compulsion, for example provide the funds to give all a "much, much, better" educational opportunity, please tell me the law that is currently preventing them form doing that! This is obviously just more of your false ideology preaching non-sense.

PS Don't forget to answer my only question:
Do you favor local funding that results in poor schools for most or federal, nation wide, funding so all get the same educational opportunities as in Scandinavia?

 

So, let me make sure I understand you correctly: (1) Money (or wealth?) always concentrates and (2) that this is bad for society (leading to violent revolution) and money/wealth (3) must forcefully be 'redistributed'.

(1) Is this a correct summary?


(2) If what you say is mathematically true (and I'm not saying I agree it is) then why not ONLY tax the top 10% and redistribute it back to the so-called 'poor'? If the State/Government is primarily there for redistribution of wealth from the mega-wealthy to the mega-poor, then why are middle class workers forced to pay a 'transaction' tax when they sell their labor? The fact is the State does WAAAAAY more than redistribute wealth. AND when it does, it's usually from the wealth and middle-class to the State, not to the poor, they're given crumbs.

How do you example, that since LBJ's "Great Society", since our "Great Leap Forward" - that poverty hasn't changed and actually WAS going down about 1% a year PRIOR to progressive redistribution and this trend reversed and we saw sky-rocketing divorce rates and stabilization of a permanent poverty class AFTER progressive redistribution? I'm not saying the answer is straightforward, but, I'm curious as to what you think.

(3) I gave the example of Japan. As 'wealth' concentrated in Japan - there was no 'need' to use 'compulsion' to 'redistribute' it to North Korea. The fact is, the Japanese were not 'making' the North Koreans poorer by becoming wealthier. In a free society, the North Koreans may even benefit by the Japanese becoming wealthier, because now they can trade with Japanese - and it's trade that creates wealth, not labor, not money - trade. Do you agree? When a person creates a product, say an a new medicine, and sells it to people - yes, wealth accumulates, but this isn't making people poorer, it's making them more prosperous because they have a medicine they value. With free markets the price of that medicine will continue to fall until it's available to everyone in society at a reasonable price. Which is why we have supercomputers that fit in our pocket and communicate around the world for the price of a nice dinner.

(4) I find it interesting you think compulsion is 'required'. That there is no other feasible way humans can organize themselves. Why do you think this? Do you have access to information regarding every and all social structures that are conceivably possible? Is your mathematics on compulsion a 'proof'? Is it published? Does it take into account a society with competing currencies? I personally don't think force is 'required' at all to have a highly complex social structure because most interactions are voluntary; whether it's dinner, grocery shopping, marriage, etc... Actually, I think exactly the opposite. Force destroys complex social structures. Which is why, when you look at the so-called "Communist" countries, where extreme socialism was prevalent, people had no rights and they returned to a basic subsidence living. The problem with the USA isn't that we're too free-market and too capitalistic. The problem is we don't have a free-markets and we don't use sound money (and even now, as I understand, law itself is beginning to break down - as in the courts are now ruling based on political affiliation).



I do agree with you on violent redistribution - from the wealthy to the poor. I just think a lot of people are going to be shocked to find out 'they' were wealthy. The USSA is really ripe for a demagogue.

 

Up until the modern era most societies used multiple types of currency (copper, bronze, silver and gold). So, again, it's quite evident, that historically people found that MORE than one currency functioned better than one currency.

Those currencies, were natural currencies. There was no compulsion to use silver over gold. People used the one that made sense to them. Thus, 7000 years of human history shows you are wrong. Because, if you were correct, then all societies would have settled on a single currency. That never happened and still hasn't happened.

In the currency Progressive Fascist monetary system we currently inhabit - this would be unfair. Thus, the State should fund a Public Schools equally, and parents should also have the legal right to refuse to put their children into a public school system and educate them at home, in groups or in private schools. Those parents should be afforded the SAME tax money (about $20,000 per child per year) to spend as they see fit on their child's education.

As an aside, it should be noted that in a prosperous country, even the poorest child has access to the internet - thus, to the entire world's information. Therefor, the goal should be to create prosperity. Prosperity arises from law, private property, sound-currency and a free-market.

I have a question: Detroit has been redistributing wealth from the 1960s when it was one of the the richest city in the world. Detroit school teachers are paid well. Better than most living in Detroit - even given a 13th month pay, you know, because they deserve it.

So, here's my question: Why is it that 47% of the kids graduating from Detroit Public Schools are functionally illiterate?