Determinism and the Big Bang

Relative to the observer, i would say we have a sense of free-will, which will be nothing more than the human being evaluating information and turning it into knowledge. Consciousness essentially, seems to only operate when the neural network has a viel of ignorance concerning the true determined nature of the universe.

 

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Also you ask what proponents in free-will have their been? Fred Hoyle believed there was no such thing as free-will, and believed the universe was predetermined.

 

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I mite agree wit you to if i kneew how you defined "free'will".!!!

My agenda is to foller the evidence whare ever it leads... which ant toward a un-defined? (magical?) thang people refer to as "free-will".???

I dont know... but Christans say that free-will is the gratest gift that God gave us... therfor Jesus ant to blame for the majority of all people who ever lived windin up in hell sinse they freely chose to go thar... an anuther agenda ive heerd in favor of free-will is... who woudnt want to have free-will... so it mus be true.!!!

 

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How do you determine that there is a "veil of ignorance"?

 

Free will. You know, "Go where you wanna go, do what you wanna do".

Are you saying there is some evidence? What is it?

Are you saying that it is a religious thing and that the agenda is an effort to justify some claim about God? I doubt it.

 

(Pasture Timmy)
Is QM the suposed magick that gives us "free-will" (what ever that is suposed to be).???


[(quantum_wave)
No, that supposed magic might be "consciousness" though...


(Pasture Timmy)
I dont thank thers anythang magical at all about consciousness... its jus the brane evolved to the pont of bein able lto ponder stuff which seems "magical"... kinda like a flashlight mite seem magical to premitive people who havae never seen 1.!!!

 

So is that what is meant by a "veil of ignorance"?

 

(Q)
Free will. You know, "Go where you wanna go, do what you wanna do".

Are you saying there is some evidence? What is it?

Are you saying that it is a religious thing and that the agenda is an effort to justify some claim about God? I doubt it.

 

O... an i dont thank people EVER deserve punishment... much less to roast in hell for eternity.!!!

 

You are ducking the definition issue as you do not tell what determines your "wants."

For example, does my toilet "want" to send a stream of water down some pipes when one part of it is stimulated in a certain way? Do I "want" to send some water down my throat, when certain chemical stimulations in my body are occurring?

I.e. in both cases, the resulting water flow down a tube is possibly just a result of certain stimulations. Judged by their behavior, many inanimate objects can be said to have "wants." My refrigerator "wants" to keep the contents below room temperature. How do you know that your "wants" are not of the same nature? I.e. determined by set of physical conditions present in your body.

SUMMARY: what determines / defines your "wants"? Is there any evidence in fact you have "wants" that you have free will that is different in kind from the "wants" of my toilet or my refrigerator? (Or are you, like them, only a machine but one that is much more complex?)

 

I actually derive that postulate from a long list of proofs. However, the main proof is that if we are to believe that there is no such thing as choice, then logically choice is something of an illusion from the observers behalf. So choice is but a viel of deception.

 

So you think that the issue between determinism and free will is a religious issue and you side with the position that everything is determined, there is no free will? What religion is that?

 

Free will to me simply means that our thoughts and actions are not predetermined by the physical nature of particles and forces that can only occur in a defined and predictable way. Our ability to act by choice, to think freely supersedes the nature of particle interactions because physical affects of our thoughts and actions influence the particle interactions.

 

I cannot find a useful distinction between "free will" and "determinism", in a quantum universe built on Wolfram's postulated substrate, at the complexity level of human thought.

Ideas cause ideas, no? Then what exactly are you claiming for "free will" - freedom from the substrate? From all substrates? A pattern that needs no substrate whatsoever?

Even the simplest of events is unpredictable, not just in practice but in theory - and not only from quantum mysteries, but from chaotic amplification of influence and other effects. So what exactly are you claiming for "determinism", in a situation in which even perfect knowledge of every impinging factor does not allow prediction, does not in fact "determine" the future?

It seems to me that misleadingly confused assumptions about the nature of "cause and effect" and "freedom" have created an impasse, needlessly. Both "determination" and "freedom" seem to me to be aspects of reality that one can have more or less of, and a better notion might be something like "degrees of freedom".

 

I think that is a pretty good definiton of what I call "genuine free will," GFW. For long time I though that as all matter, brain and nerves included, was ruled by the natural laws that GFW was imposible. (I still tend to think GFW is only an illusion all have.)* However, there may be one possible other (than postulating a soul, etc.) escape from the control of natural laws over your every thought and action: For it see:

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1294496&postcount=52
for details, and evidence supporting this non-standard POV. It is a long read, about 8 pages if printed.

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*Here is strong experimental evidence that supports the idea that GFW is just a universal illusion. - I.e. that humans are just very complex machines and "consciousness" is the last to learn what the body has already decided.
See: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1950636&postcount=148

 

I am not familiar with Wolfram's postulate, but if one defines "Free Will" (or my genuine free will, GFW) as quantum wave does in post 33, then determinism and GFW are very distinct -almost the antithesis of each other. Of course, as I think you agree, with imprecise knowledge (chaos theory) and/or quantum effects "determinism" does not exist, but the evidence* seems to indicate neither does GWF, so they probably have that in common.
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* See link in post 35's footnote for this evidence.

 

BillyT, we may be on two completely different wavelengths and angular momentums

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Not to over think it, but I think it is possible to over think GFW. To me, the kind of determinism that could allow every thought and action to be predictable would require a beginning. I don't think there was a beginning, i.e. to me, the universe is infinite, has always existed, is filled with energy density, and energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Determinism is defeated by an infinite past and an infinite spatial universe filled with variable energy density that can be infinitely fine. Insert the word "potentially" before each use of the word "infinite".

The universe not only contains tiny pertubations that we cannot be aware of (as mentioned in your link), but it contains infinite histories that cannot be brought to bear on every individual particle interaction.

 

Dew to science... time after time... we have learned that the thangs we hadnt prevously understood wasnt caused by "magical-stuff"... thangs an events realy do have causes... an you'r "asumed" degree of freedom has becom smaller an smaller... kinda like... the mor we know the less we beleive.!!!

 

We agree on determinism. You must have posted this prior to reading my reply to iceaura (post 36) where I cleary state two entirely different reasons why "determinism" does NOT exist.

 

First one must define what is a ''choice''. Then one must follow carefully all of the complimentary variables that follow the act of ''choice'', such as an unfolding of information made by the observer that is inexorably processed into knowledge.

If one can deduct that knowledge is but an increasing entropy within consciousness, then choice is complimentary knowledge in a very valuable way.