Desegregation: Harmful or Helpful?

From another thread:

The article posted and Gengi's comments afterwards illustrate what an utter disaster desegregation has been. It's not that I think that blacks should not be allowed at white schools. It's the judicial tyranny that attempted to force white kids to go to majority black schools that were not in their neighboorhood.

The original lawsuit {Brown v/s Board of Education} complained that a black kid had to pass a couple white schools to get to the black school, so why couldn't she just go to the white school. How did the brilliant judges fix this problem? By bussing white kids all over the place to achieve some ideal racial mixture.

Judges forgot that humans have free will and will not be treated as pawns for some jackass judge to achieve his perfect rainbow of colors at a given school. When faced with their children being bused to all black schools, whites either moved completely out of the district beyond the reach of judicial tyranny, or sent their kids to private schools. Meanwhile, the inner cities became more and more black, poorer and poorer.

I have personally been affected by this. For about six years I lived in a mostly white town surrounded by mostly black towns. It had one of the best school systems in the state of Illinois. Then there were some lawsuits, and the next thing you know our school system is integrated with the surrounding mostly black and far inferior school systems.

Suddenly test scores fell precipitously. There were fights, drug problems, racial tension. My son's school went from about ninety five percent white to seventy percent black.

Soon all of our friends were moving out of the town. Indeed, out of the county beyond the reach of lawsuits. After a couple of years, we followed. Moving to Indiana, to what is arguably the best school district in the state.

My son, who was one of the top ten students at his school in Illinois, tested into remedial English at his new school. He's finally back into normal English and stayed in advanced math.

Meanwhile, our old town {Crete, IL} now has one of the worst school districts in the state of Illinois.

The moral? All this concern with racial balance at schools serves only to drive all the whites completely out of the county and leaves no tax base to fund the black students that remain. Furthermore, it is a distraction from the real issues.

Students should go to school where they live.
If that means defacto segregation, so be it. Let the whites know their kids can safely go to their neighboorhood school without fear of being bussed into the ghetto, and some whites might just stay around. Then you can focus on education, not racial balance.

Also, this story puts paid to the notion that money has anything to do with education.

 

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Forced integration simply will not work ...ever! In fact, think about it ......forced anything has never worked in almost any endeavor of mankind sicne the beginning of history. Oh, sure, maybe for a short, short time, but it was always a disaster-in-the-making ...even from the start.

Baron Max

 

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forced anything can work if there is adequate education and familiarity. Note my conditions.

 

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Perhaps a little over stated, but I think often this not incorrect; however, you seem to think/presume that segregation is somehow natural and "unforced." I think "segregation"* is one of he better examples of FORCED behavior being successful,** but note it is so because it is instilled at such an early age that it does not appear to be forced on you.

It seems to me that Breck (in “three penny opera” - I think) had how segregation is forced /created just about correct, or perfectly described:

"You have to be careful taught - before you are six or seven or eight - to hate all the people your relatives hate - you have to be taught, before it too late, to hate all the people your relatives hate." (or something like that in English translation for the German original.)

If you go see young children playing a orphanage or any place where the society has failed to teach much to them, including: to hate all the people your relatives hate, those ignorant (untaught) kids play together without regard to skin color or other racial characteristics.

Clearly your tacit assumption that segregation is natural and not FORCED onto children by the social indoctrination system - is false.
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* The segregation in India is not racial, but they need some help knowing who is high class (women with painted dot on center forehead) and who is not. That is also a forced segregation that, if you are non-Indian, you make more easily recognized as social force in action.
**"successful" in the Darwinian sense that it survives, not in the sense it is an aid to the society as good brains in the "wrong" bodies often fail to get developed to the detriment of the society. (However, the Baron and I have had this discussion before.)

 

I agree. note my post just made. I.e. many societies have adequate "education" to make segregation work.

 

As you might guess, we hear/read that bullshit often, but it's just one more idiotic ideal that doesn't and can't take into account the normal and natural ideal of the family structure.

Of course children are taught by their parents! What? ...you'd have all children taken at birth and raised by liberal doo-gooders?

No, you're making that statement with complete disregard of the basic human family structures and, I might add, the basic human rights that we all so dearly love to wave around in triumph.

So ...is this to say that you'd take away the rights of families and parents in order to FORCE your ways and methods and thoughts onto the children? And that's better?

Baron Max

 

Forced education? Take the kids from their parents and "teach them the "right" ways of the world"???

So ...you don't give a fuck about the parents' rights? You'd force integration education onto the little kids ......do it my way, goddammit, or we'll kill you!!!

Baron Max

 

As an alternative perspective, I can say that while here in South Africa there has been no forced desegregative bussing since Apartheid fell, from what I've seen the English speaking public schools have become quite well mixed and private schools are following (although more slowly). Afrikaans speaking schools more slowly yet since few black people wish to be educated in that language.

Many children are growing up without the prejudices of the previous generation.

Of course, unlike the US, blacks here are a definite majority, which might make a difference.

Once the colour barrier is breached, the largest barrier is, I think, language - mainly between whites (very few of which speak an African language, unfortunately) and those blacks who aren't proficient in English.

That sounds remarkably like a song from the American Musical South Pacific.

 

Interesting observation. And also interesting is that the blacks in America seem to be going out of their way to invent their own form of "english" as a way of defining their culture and ethicity ....instead of learning regular English as taught in schools and used in business. I.e, they're actually segragating themselves from the mainstream of American life ...doing it intentionally!

Baron Max

 

wht r u tlkng abt?

 

Very, very intelligent response, Nick! thanks,

Baron Max

 

No, you are presuming again.

The English dialect spoken by blacks has been well studied and conforms to the theory Chompsky has advance as part of man's natural linguistic genetic heritage (Its rules - internal structures, for example how a declarative sentence is converted into a question , things about how an "imbedded clause" can relate to the main part of the sentence etc - I have forgotten most of this, but it is amazing how all human languages are governed by a genetic endowment structure) A "intentionally developed" language, like Esperanto, is artificial and does not follow the "human system of languages" rules of our genes. A bunch of professor made it up, trying to make use of different language to give it international appeal - long before Chompsky totally changed what is "linguistics" (the study of language).

Typical of the true American black variant of English are structures that are wrong in Standard English but completely consistent, unlike Esperanto, with humanity’s genetic endowment. For example they will say: "He be coming tomorrow." instead of "He is coming tomorrow." Their version is no more wrong than old English of Queen Elizabeth’s time is wrong. I dare your to try to read even a page of Beowulf. - I tried once and what I could get from it was mostly due to fact I also knew German at that time.

All the modern linguists will tell you are wrong! - American black dialect or variant of English is a natural, not made up, language. Any historian of language will tell you that its roots/ structure are older than English and common to several still living African dialects.

Summary:
Your are just ignorantly presuming something that is demonstrably false. (However, you would need to understand more of what Chompsky has taught us about language to realize this.)

 

Who cares whether of not it is natural, it's not the language the rest of society speaks. By speaking a different language, whether it follows Chompsky's rules or not, blacks are segregating themselves.

 

I agree. All who do not learn to speak the currently accepted version are "segregating themselves", and much worse, limiting their opportunities socially and economically. My point was they are not doing it "intentionally" -it is just a natural evolution of their African language structures adapting to living in a English dominant culture.

Have you ever been to Orakoke* Island, off the NC coast? 35 years ago (or more?) when I went camping there, I learned that scholars who want to understand the English of Queen Elizabeth’s time often come there, at least back then, as that was the only place in the world still speaking the English of Queen Elizabeth’s time. That is probably all destroyed now, with the children of these speakers working in some Hilton Hotel, speaking proper English to the guests. Ah "progress" is unstoppable!
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*spelled wrong very likely

 

Okay! For all your learned bullshit in your earlier post, I see that you fully agree with me .....they're segragating themselves!!

So .....fuck 'em!

Baron Max

 

I guess that makes as much sence as the theory that black kids can't learn unless they're sitting next to a white kid.

 

Segregation may end up being a good thing, if people are segregated by profession and criminal record.

However most of the time, people are segregated on appearance, and in this case it's as stupid as segregation by hair color and shoe size. To be accurate and rational with racial segregation, all tall blondes should have a state, all blonde midgets should have a state, all blonde criminals should have a state, all blonde artists should have a state. and then you can move on to the next hair color, and have all dark haired aryans in another state, seperating the talls from the short, the fat from the skinny, the smart from the dumb, the criminals from the non criminals, and then do the same with redheads, and once people are divided by hair color you can further divide people, so that all the people with clear skin and dark hair are seperate from all the people with dark skin and dark hair, and once again put everyone into their own little box, and finally divide people up by religion and culture.

The end result is, you'll only be around your kinda person, they will look as much like you as possible, they will think as much like you as possible, they will have emotions as much like yours as possible, and be about as intelligent as you are, they'll even have the same profession as you do.

So if you are a tall, thin, blonde haired blue eyed artist, who happens to be Christian, you'll have your own state and it will be for tall thin blonde Christian artists only, anyone else will require a special invitation to enter.

 

Segregation will not be racial forever. When blacks and non-whites go extinct, segregation will be based on how thin you are, how tall you are, how blonde your hair is, and how blue your eyes are, among other things such as intelligence level, culture, and religion.

Genetic discrimination is genetic discrimination, you can call it race, you can call it old terms like black and white, but if there are no black people there will still be segregation, and maybe that's a good thing because obviously the majority of the world wants to put everyone into boxes, thats why race was invented in the first place.

So, if we look at the current society defined definition of beauty, tall blonde women who are thin, like say Paris Hilton, this is the master race. Segregation will work in her favor, if you look different from this, segregation will only work in your favor if you have someone lower on the ladder, like minorities, gays and others to live in the worlds ghettos and do all the difficult jobs. Race, like class, acts as a buffer, as long as there is someone a shade darker than you, or shorter than you, or with darker hair, or fatter, or in general just uglier than you by what society defines as ugly, then you gain all the advantages of society based on societies definition of beauty.

So, if you are blonde, with blue eyes, tall, thin, with a nice smile, then perhaps it actually is in your advantage to want segregation. If you don't look like this, segregation will not work in your advantage long term, because all it will do is create a ghetto for all but those who are most beautiful according to whatever society says is beautiful at the time.

Simply look at history, people who look "ugly" according to society, also happen to live in an ugly ghettofied environment. So now people associate beauty with wealth, self worth, and all of these other things. And of course it's the physical kind of beauty, so when you grow old it's all gone.

 

Everything is white and black, black and white, up and down, left and right, one extreme or the other, 1 or 0, good or evil, right or wrong, I see right through your false binary logic here.

No one in this country speaks proper english. Arnold speaks just as bad as Kobe, who speaks just as bad as Pedro, who speaks just as bad as you do. You go to Europe, England, and you are the one who can't speak straight.