Denial of Evolution V

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by Hercules Rockefeller, Mar 7, 2012.

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  1. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    I'm not running from anything. I'm asking you a direct question, and you're evading answering it.

    Yes, and I am asking you what you mean by phrases you use in your challenge. Until you clarify what you think constitutes life, nobody can even attempt to answer you.

    The only person running here is you. Personally, I think it's about time you got banned for trolling.
     
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  3. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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  5. AlphaNumeric Fully ionized Moderator

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    No, that isn't my task. The onus is on you if you claim it is flawed, given the century of experiments. Your repeated inability to show any problem undermines your claims.

    Then clearly state what you think TOE's definition is. No one is asking you to make one up, we're asking you to define what you understand it to mean.
     
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  7. chinglu Valued Senior Member

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    1) Then clearly state what you think TOE's definition is. No one is asking you to make one up, we're asking you to define what you understand it to mean.
    Fair enough. I view this definition as accurate.

    The theory of evolution is an explanation for the existence of life on Earth through random, natural processes. More formally known as the General Theory of Evolution, it was defined by the evolutionist Gerald A. Kerkut as the theory that all the living forms in the world have arisen from a single source which itself came from an inorganic form.


    http://creationwiki.org/Theory_of_evolution

    Now, I have presented several articles from Oxford and Harvard that back up this claim as they seek a viable candidate for LUCA (single source which itself came from an inorganic form).

    So, I am on firm ground.

    Next, I have demonstrated through several articles from top universities that LUCA must have evolved in a temperate climate.

    So, we opened the debate along the lines of the mainstream and accepted this 2009 conclusions.

    I then offered redox cycles as sulfur or Oxygen in order to generate the electricity to split H2O. This is the current state of plants and if this is false, feel free to offer an alternative to explain LUCA in a temperate climate.

    You really should learn to read threads because I have been through all this.

    So, if LUCA evolved in a temperate climate, then it is on you to describe how this happened in order to satisfy the terms of service of TOE. Otherwise, TOE must confess it is a worthless failure.
     
  8. chinglu Valued Senior Member

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    You are the troll.

    You are demanding that I offer a TOE.

    All I did is prove LUCA evolved in a temperate climate as per Oxford articles.

    Now, do you accept these articles or are you a troll.

    Next, if LUCA evolved in temperate climates, there must be an implementation. Like a troll you have no idea how to show this and do not even know what this means so you just huff and puff like a troll.

    Now, can you support TOE given the Oxford and other articles I provided?

    If not, then you are a troll and should be banned.

    Otherwise, feel free to offer your implementation of a redox cycle sufficient to construct food (carbohydrates) for LUCA.

    I have no problem confessing I do not have said implementation and have done that in this thread.

    If I did, given the turn of TOE in 2009, I would be famous.

    That is where we are.

    Do you have said implementation?
     
  9. chinglu Valued Senior Member

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    Also, we must not forget, MIT proved in 2009 that TOE is false.

    Anyone that goes against MIT is a crackpot troll.


    Several recent studies, one conducted by researchers at MIT and another by researchers at the Tufts University School of Medicine, have rekindled the debate once again. As reported in MIT's Technology Review in February 2009, "The effects of an animal's environment during adolescence can be passed down to future offspring ... The findings provide support for a 200-year-old theory of evolution that has been largely dismissed: Lamarckian evolution, which states that acquired characteristics can be passed on to offspring."
    http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/22061
     
  10. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    No I'm not.

    I'm asking you to define what you mean by 'life', what you mean by 'something else', and explain why you think life is something other than chemistry.

    That's it.

    Apparently asking you to define the terms you're using is too much to ask.
     
  11. chinglu Valued Senior Member

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    I have said it over and over and over.

    I am defining life in terms of TOE.

    If I am going to attack a theory, why would I set up definitions different from that of TOE?
     
  12. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    So. You claim to be using the mainstream definition of 'life', but what, you're unable to put it in your own words?
     
  13. chinglu Valued Senior Member

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    I am not sure what you are after.

    I followed the mainstream definition of life and showed using MIT, Harvard and Oxford articles demonstrating this. They all conclude there must be a LUCA. They all agreed it must construct its own food.

    They also agreed LUCA must have evolved in a temperate environment.

    Now, since this is your theory and you claim you are not a troll, please explain how LUCA evolved in a temperate environment when as of 2009 not one single top university in the world can prove this implementation.

    So, make your case.

    If you can't, then your are a troll and should be banned.
     
  14. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

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    chinglu

    The Last Universal Common Ancestor and the first lifeforms are two very different things, probably separated in time by hundreds of millions of years and trillions of generations of replication. You only shown that you have no idea about the things you are talking about. The articles you cited are talking about the last organism that all life on Earth now descended from(LUCA), not about the first lifeforms, which were neither plants or animals, only protozoa of many forms and ever increasing complexity. There probably was a LUCA, but it was not the first nor the only form that existed when it did. You cites are totally irrelevant to the first lifeform.

    Actually, if it could construct it's own food it cannot be the LUCA, as animals and many bacteria do not and can not do so. To be the LUCA it must have traits common to all life, only plants and some bacteria construct their own food. Since the guys at the institutions are not ignorant of this, it is you who is ignorantly interpreting what you have read.

    That is their opinion, there are others, and none have conclusive evidence.

    Step very carefully here, it is your behavior that is most trollish here, ignoring the answers you receive, repeatedly repeating pseudoscientific arguments already debunked and refusing to explain what your understanding is despite repeated requests, thinking you know better than professional scientists and twisting cites for your own ignorant arguments. Your candle here is getting shorter by the post.

    Absolute, 100% pure, barnyard grade male bovine poo. They did not do(or claim to do)anything of the sort. That is a lie, either through total ignorance of the facts or dishonesty, your choice. All MIT said is that there are effects of the mothers early life that have an effect on that mother's offspring. It did not disprove evolution but like chiclids can change their morphology in response to certain predators in the environment(without the predator chiclids have no dorsal spine, with the predator the spine appears in offspring)it is caused by the expression of certain genes in some conditions and others in different conditions. All of the expressed genes are the result of evolution. No gene is created by the mothers experience, but the experiences trigger the expression of certain sets of genes. Another, similar situation is at work that produces more homosexual male offspring if the male is the second or third son born in human mothers. The genes are not altered but developmental sequences and gene expression is. If MIT had disproven evolution it would have been the biggest story in the news but this study seems instead to have died a quiet death, as many such claims do when they turn out to be erroneous or not supported by subsequent study. You really have no scientific understanding of what you read, do you?

    You've certainly illustrated your total inability to understand what LUCA was. It was far from the first lifeform, it was just the last lifeform that is common to all current lifeforms. It was not the only lifeform to exist at the time it existed, it is just the only one that left offspring that survived to today, and it did not create it's own food(only plants and bacteria do that, not animals and the majority of other single celled lifeforms, so they can't have a cell that produces food in their lineage). Again, you know nothing about LUCA except what you misinterpreted from some articles you cherry picked for your spurious arguments You'll never win an argument from a position of abysmal ignorance of what you are arguing about.

    "The theory of evolution is an explanation for the existence of life on Earth through random, natural processes. More formally known as the General Theory of Evolution, it was defined by the evolutionist Gerald A. Kerkut as the theory that all the living forms in the world have arisen from a single source which itself came from an inorganic form."

    That form was not LUCA, it was a simple, self replicating molecule that formed many hundreds of millions of years prior to LUCA(which probably existed a little over 3 billion years ago, though the question is still open). We KNOW that stromatolites existed at that time and they were one of the first "plants" as they used photosythesis to create oxygen as a byproduct.

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    This chart is what we know of evolution. U are here, the center is the first lifeform(it's empty because we know little about them), time begins in the center some 3.7 billion years ago. The innermost circle is LUCA. Between the center and Luca is a space representing several hundred million years of evolution in lifeforms, all but one of which did not survive. Learn something.

    Grumpy

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  15. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    I've told you, several times exactly what I want from you.

    Explain to us, in your own words, what definition of 'Life' and 'something else' you're using.
    You say you're using the mainstream definition of life? Then explain to us, in your own words, what you understand the mainstream definition to be.

    Be sure to support your definition with citations.
     
  16. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Indeed, there's one hypothesis - a variation of RNA world - that requires life to have gotten a start in a frigid environment (EG a sub-glacial lake) because of the increased survivability of RNA fragments under those conditions.
     
  17. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Since at best this supplements the TOE, what purpose does it serve your arguments by posting it? Are you now going to explain what you're claiming the mainstream teaches? You've haven't yet laid any foundation for your general arguments. To do that, you would need to enumerate what the theory even is, then what it it is you oppose. That was one of my points in my last post. You didn't reply to it, so does that mean you agree with what I posted?

    For starters, you should at least enumerate Darwin's original statement of the theory, then specify which elements you oppose.
     
  18. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Where have you posted your definition of life?

    What is the "L" in LUCA? Why are you talking about "First" life and LUCA in the same context?

    Construct its own food? What do you mean? Are you going to establish how primitive metabolism worked, and on what basis you are claiming it?
    I think it's stated as a probability, not a must. What other assumptions have you made that no one else is making? That first life = LUCA? That would be FUCA, not LUCA. What temperate environment are you referring to? There are organisms today that live from minerals. Do you assume this was not available for first life forms? If so, why, based on what evidence?

    I don't think one single university ever equated LUCA with FUCA. None of them have reached any conclusions about any events preceding LUCA, nor is there any hard evidence about one climate that lasted for millions of years. There is no assumption among them about whether first life took root under or above water, or, if near thermal vent, how far the first life might have been to receive mineral nutrients without being exposed to excessive heat, or whether there was a temperate zone near a vent that was hot enough but not too hot. All of these are assumptions you are making, not actual statements from the source material you are referring to.
     
  19. AlphaNumeric Fully ionized Moderator

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  20. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

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    Rubbish. The article says no such thing. It’s just a general non-specific science journalism piece that tried to simplify concepts for the general public. Epigenetics is one of the hot fields in genetic research at the moment. There are whole journals and textbooks on the subject. It has thousands of scientists worldwide studying it and I’ve never seen any of them trying to suggest that the phenomenon of epigenetics does not sit perfectly within the overarching theory of evolution. Because it doesn’t as anyone with any genetics knowledge would know.

    As far as I am concerned, misinterpreting a general non-specific science journalism piece for the purposes of supporting your denialism of a well-established scientific theory is trolling. And I’m banning people for that sort of trolling at the moment. Think about it.
     
  21. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

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    Mod note: I am temporarily closing this thread for 24-48 hours while I consider what to do about trolling and woeful misunderstandings of biology and evolution. Check back in a few days.
     
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