Denial of evolution IV

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by Hercules Rockefeller, Oct 27, 2009.

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  1. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    I did support it, but this may not be your area of expertise. This is why I asked someone in the know, to explain the consensus theory for why only single handedness within active bio-materials and how does the cell maintain this state of lowered entropy?
    I already know the answer but it is good to hear someone else say it.

    Enough distraction, I would like to talk about the DNA. I will get back to the boundary condition when it is time to link the two. Below is some data from an ACS publication concerning the enthalpies of formation of the nucleic acids.

    http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/je800977n

    The enthalpy of formation tells us about the energy needed to form the various nucleic acids. The most interesting one is adenine. It has an enthalpy of formation of +225.7 kj/mole. This means we need to add energy to form adenine. This added energy is useful for the power of ATP because adenine is a hot molecule like a "mini TNT".

    The enthalpies of formation for uracil and thymine are, -301 and -338 kj/mole, respectively. These release a lot of energy when they form.

    The cytosine weighs in at, -69 kj/mole and guanine is calculated at +16 kj/,mole. These two are in the middle between the two extremes.

    If we went back to primordial times, all else being equal, the enthalpies of formation tells us something about the relative concentrations of available nuclei acids that would be around. Interestingly, the endothermic nature of adenine makes it harder to form and easier to disintegrate into entropy, thereby implying adenine was not in sizable proportions in the very early replicators, compared to the more exothermic ones which form easily and are at lower energy for more stability.

    What is also interesting are, the start codon is typically AUG (or ATG in DNA), or we need the mini-TNT to get the starting process going. Because adenine is endothermic in terms of formation, the expected small ratio of adenine might imply very few start markers in the first replicators. It was all about just plain ole replication practice.
     
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  3. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    No you didn't.
    You were asked to support your claim that the "denial is based on prestige and emotional appeal".
    Which you have yet to do.
     
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  5. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Quite like the Ford plant stamping machine keeps turning out the same shape car hoods, for each model of a given year etc. I.e. the parts of cells that make left handed parts / molecules do so as that is what happened to make them etc. (Many car hoods have no handedness but some have off center line bumps or vents and do have handedness.)

    What you fail to understand is that evolution cannot make viable drastic changes in topography of creatures or even their more complex molecules that do have isomers (mirror images forms with “handedness”)

    For example, it would be better if the photo sensitive cells in human eye retinas were in front of the blood vessels nourishing them instead behind with part of the incoming light blocked, but that change is not possible in small steps. Neither is change from a left molecular structure to right handed one possible in small steps for complex molecules. The fact that most life forms have this same left isomer form is more proof that it all had a common very distant origin.

    Some very simple and not very important to survival molecules of biological origin do come both ways. The existence of atoms was not really proven beyond all doubt until Einstein model of Brownian motion was confirmed. (He got his only Noble Prize, mainly for that, not relativity as many assume, I think from memory.) One of the early indications of validity of atomic / molecular theory was made by Pasture when he was employed by a wine company (again as I recall).

    Wine (or even most grape juice, I think) leaves crystals in the bottom of the bottles, “tarta” or something like that they are called. They do have both handednesses, which like a quartz crystal can be visually recognized (but with a microscope). Pasture spent many hours sorting the left from right tarta crystals then re dissolved them separately and then again formed them by evaporation. – As he suspended and hoped, handiness was preserved. I.e. the solution he formed with right trata crystals made only right tarta crystals when it evaporated. Thus this handiness was at the molecular level, not just a random happening when the crystal was formed.
     
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  7. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    The way I already proved that, was I asked the question pages ago, about the single handedness of proteins, but all I got was question with a question or some other emotional based distractions QED.

    Here some more insight into the DNA, that is already well known, but will be explained in another way. In the table below, life prefers a lot of the adenine or the high energy mini-TNT. This high energy reflects the boundary conditions which is also maintained at high energy.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Relative to evolution, since adenine needs energy to form, and since it is also one of the dominant nucleic acids within DNA, evolution appears to have moved DNA in the direction of increasing the energy stored within the DNA.
     
  8. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    If that was meant as a reply to me then I'll have to inform you that you've failed, again, to make your point.
     
  9. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    I realize there is an actual difference between stereo isomers. In the case of bio-materials catalytic properties are quite different.

    Since the yeast formed both stereo isomers of tartaric acid, it implies was an entropy increase, since there are two energy levels, left and right. Even if we explain the single handedness, as it stuck that way, there is still a lingering potential connected to entropy. Entropy will try to use both energy levels associated with both hands. This is what the yeast did in 50/50 fashion. To restrict handedness to one, means a constant resistance to an entropy increase.
     
  10. Arioch Valued Senior Member

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    @Wellwisher --

    What about your claim that, and I quote you here here, "the denial is based on prestige and emotional appeal but never on actual scientific proof that says otherwise"? There are those of us here who would like to see you back up this claim with some actual evidence....for once....
     
  11. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    Billy T was the only one who tried. Was that so hard, or is it easier to get emotional? Rather than discuss science, you guys like to foot drag.

    Let me ask a question, can you see that the cation gradient represents a situation of induced higher energy and lower entropy?
     
  12. Arioch Valued Senior Member

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    @wellwisher --

    Oh well since you say it's so I guess that's enough evidence for me.....ugh.....sorry, had a bit of an aneurysm there due to the fact that you've, again, failed to support your claim. Telling me what happened isn't evidence, show me.

    EDIT: Oh, and you weren't discussing science anyways.
     
  13. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Let me ask a question, again.
    Can you support your emotional rhetoric and unjustified accusations or not?
     
  14. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    Nope, photoelectric effect, 1921:

    http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1921/
     
  15. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Not only that, but he seems very confused. The biological role of DNA is not to "store energy" but information. If he wants to look at biological molecules that store energy he should be speaking of fats and oils.
     
  16. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    Dywyddyr you don't appear very conscious of yourself o maybe your short term memory is going.

    QED
     
  17. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    I am aware of the template nature of the DNA. I was only showing that adenine is the highest energy nucleic acid in terms of enthalpy of formation. If we add up all the nucleic acids in DNA as a function of enthalpy of formation, the DNA has taken on the character of energy storage. This does not deny the template relations but tells us other things left out. If you wish to plot the 3-D DNA, or DNA in terms of how it spreads out, energy might come in handy.
     
  18. Arioch Valued Senior Member

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    @wellwisher --

    No, Dyw is right in that you haven't supported your claim in the least. Instead you went off on a completely unscientific tangent about DNA and energy and how it shows that....something.....

    Unfortunately your posts are slipperier than even the emperor of the wooniverse' grasp on logic and it's impossible to follow your posts logically, and thus your overall goals in this thread remain a mystery to me. However, it is quite apparent that you have literally no idea what you're talking about when it comes to biology(apparently your engineering education didn't prepare you for such a subject...what a shock).

    Now, would you care to ever support your claim, the one I quoted in my second to last post?
     
  19. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    No that is false. Both handed isomers, considered by themselves, (not in some isomer sensitive environment) have exactly the same energy (of formation or any other type) for all isomers.

    Until two Chinese physicists discovered a very slight Left/right difference in weak force interations and / or CPT conservation (I forget the details) and then got the Noble prize for the discovery, it was well known that it was impossible to tell to an alien which of the two you call "left" unless you could show him a sample.

    That would not have been true if one, even only one of thousand of different isomers had an energy difference between the right and left versions. - Just telling the alien what you called the higher energy one of the two would communicate to him which was left and which was right.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2011
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    No, the potential chemical energy of right and left handed versions of molecules are the same.

    Entropy doesn't "try" to do anything. Things tend towards entropy because physical processes drive them in that direction, not because a process called "entropy" directs things in a given direction. Entropy is a measure of the property of disorder, not a process.

    Again, there is no process to resist. It's like saying that joules cause your TV to waste power. It's a meaningless statement.
     
  21. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    How does the entropy of the universe constantly increase? There is a consistent direction for entropy. There are different definitions of entropy such as the amount of information needed to define a system. It is the filling in of possible energy levels, changes from the status quo, randomness, etc.

    One or more of the those definition is not quite working out especially since if random processes are behind evolution, how does handedness escape? Some things are not quite so random.
     
  22. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    You are correct, the photo-electric effect is the one specifically mentioned in the Nobel citation but also mentioned is his general advancement of physic theory - really a reference to everything he did in his "miracle year" of 1905, which included the explanation of both the photo electric effect and and a more difficult and detailed analysis of Brownian motions, with predictions of vertical particle density gradients.

    At the time, (and <1910) explaining Brownian motion was considered a greater achievement, as I understand it. The photo-electric effect explanation is relatively simple - easily explained to any bright 12 year old, but as the years passed grew in importance as the quantum theory did. - P-E effect was the first irrefutable example of a quantum effect. Few Ph.D.s, including me, have followed the details of his theory of Brownian motion calculations as it is complex.

    However, I mainly wanted to make the point that the theory of relativity had nothing to do with his Nobel prize.
     
  23. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Yes I did miss your point. I now understand that you are asking about the creation of my persona. I will give it shot, I haven't thought much about it.

    First I was born, pure id, with the mind of a lizard and a sucking reflex. These were imparted by the DNA, integrated from the aggregate of vestigial ancestral survivability components. After normalizing my reflexes, focus and digestive tract, I then executed a bootstrap program mainly in motor control and the auditory aspect of speech. A lot of pattern recognition began accumulating samples, and by age 2, I was walking, talking with 90% of my neural pathways completed.

    At this point the ego operating system loader loaded, under the id bootstrap controller with DNA as its kernel. With this I loaded an operational version 1.0, the onset of personality, and went through a period of mental metamorphosis which we call "the terrible twos", manifest by tantrums. It was a shakedown, a defragging and reformatting operation to reconfigure the neural net for a MAC layer implementation of ego inter-neural packets using a compressed pseudorandom sequence of self replicating code that unfolds within the framework of the parietal platform. After that, the curiosity module opened out of the loader and initialized itself and I became a cute pain in the ass. By then I was running a 47th order moment-about-the-mean statistical capture and recognition for audio, video, tactile, olfactory, and taste sensor inputs through a analog sample-and-hold collector and muliplexor into a first order integration module distributed throughout the cerebrum, and hardwired into a duplex backplane at the pons for distribution up and down the spinal cord.

    This of course is a system overview, as the DNA kernel endows us with redundancy between lobes, realtime error handling, interrupt service, a suite of object-oriented reentrant library modules, self replicating code, auto-encapsulation and realtime instantiation of experiential data and methods, and direct port tunnelling through the universal positron gateway to the edge of the universe where Mind ultimately resides.

    That's my religion, if I had to sketch it in the back of a napkin at Hooters.

    Other than that, I'm just a regular old atheist.
     
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