Degrees of Misogyny

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Bowser, Nov 13, 2015.

  1. mtf Banned Banned

    No, I am skeptical about the effectiveness of such approaches. Clearly, they are effective to some degree, but not 100%.
    I find it very disheartening when people applaud a partial solution and want us to think it is The Solution. Sure, especially in the short run, partial solutions may be the best there is, and such is the reality of things, problems are not rarely difficult to solve. But that should not stop us from looking for thorough, long-term solutions. Like I already said earlier -- While treating symtpoms is necessary, the real, long-term solution is in dealing with the cause. Approaching discussion in the mode of "He that is not instantly and wholly with us, is wholly and totally against us" is not helping find that long-term solution.

    And there appears to be a short-term evolutionary advantage in doing so. People who focus solely on competition seem to do better in life (even if that requires them to ignore the many instances of cooperation that were also required for them to succeed).
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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    On Advocating Harm

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    Click to find how deep a word can cut.

    We should probably advise our neighbor particularly that we are already aware the behavior is deliberate. His response at #443↑ erased any doubt; asked a direct question, our neighbor mtf decided to keep trolling. "What," he asked, "am I supposed to say?"

    One would think answering the question would suffice.

    But that's not the point of our neighbor's role in the discussion. The basic routine: Newbie walks in, throws down male supremacism as an argument (#424↑), identifies the first woman seen in the room, singles her out (#425↑), and aims to pick a personal dispute. From virtual corners like ours on up to the boardroom, there is exactly nothing new about this method of harassment.

    And what follows is a string of wilful invalidation.

    For instance, see #441↑, in which the question of sexual harassment becomes, "If someone you fancy gives you a compliment, your response is to feel offended and intruded upon, right ...". No, seriously, what does that even mean?

    There are, for instance, the points I've suggested:

    (1) That the generalizations are intended to invalidate and exclude the actual examples by simply ignoring them.

    (2) That the generalizations do, in fact, include the specific examples, and this is our answer, anyway.​

    "If someone you fancy gives you a compliment"? This is a new assertion within the framework, which would match point (1). We might also recognize point (2) if we acknowledge the possibility that the prescribed condition presumes all women subject to such harassment fancy their harasser. The harassed women telling us what the problem is are silenced within that reconstruction of the issue.

    Returning for a moment to #425↑ it seems well enough to note that mtf endorses sexual harassment as a competitive strategy: "If catcalling gets to you, if it throws you off your game, it means it is an effective strategy for winning the competition against you".

    Let us, then, consider a couple subsequent statements accordingly:

    • Well, then it could be something else he wants, some resource that he believes she has and he lacks. That resource can be material or psychological. (#429↑)

    • If I was in the position where I saw a beautiful woman, someone who attracted my attention, and I were a young single man, if I really wanted to get to know her, I might try opening a dialogue with a compliment, risking rejection on the gamble that she might respond in kind. (#436↑)

    In American baseball, we have a colloquial term, "Can of corn". I don't know what you call the equivalent in cricket.

    But those statements unquestionably attempt to justify sexual harassment.

    The whole point is to troll and justify criminal behavior: Just harass and pressure and coerce her into cooperating as an effective strategy for getting what a man wants.

    Given the nature of the issue, it is also straight up rape advocacy: Consent under duress is not consent.

    The way I see it, our neighbor mtf really needs to answer this part, and in a straightforward manner.

    Nor should we ignore the pretense of impunity these common attempts to justify sexual harassment, belligerence, and violence through many threads over the course of time. Dangerous impudence is a more accurate description. The point isn't to win the argument, but to repeatedly remind any woman in communication range what our neighbor thinks she's worth. It is deliberately provocative behavior intending harm.

    Edit note: Correct broken hyperlink; 4 August 2016, 0305 PDT.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2016
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  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Uh, that does not actually address the post you quoted. What approaches are you talking about, and which of the alternatives presented in the quote do you prefer?

    That is: are you opposed, or are you not opposed, to societal measures against street robbery in the absence of a complete societal solution to the problem of human violence in general?

    Because the matter is muddled in your posts. This indicates support for "treating symptoms", by calling it necessary:
    This indicates opposition to "treating symptoms", by describing it as meaningless:
    Of course. But since nobody is doing that here, you would not be so disheartened by these outside factors you find elsewhere that you failed to address the issues of this thread and forum. Or if you were you would simply not post. Right?
    That makes no sense. What is the evidence for claiming that people who focus solely on competition, and ignore the cooperation that you note is required, do better in life? Are you assuming they did cooperate, by accident, or is the cooperation not in fact required?

    And what is the evolutionary advantage of doing "better in life"?
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  7. mtf Banned Banned

    I can't think in the sort of dichotomy you do, and I can't retrace how you come to the interpretation you have above.

    I suppose the difference may be that some people are so sure that doing their best is the best possible and as good as it gets, even if it is not the total solution, that they feel completely confident of themselves, without any doubts about themselves or their actions; while others feel a sobering sternness or sadness upon realizing that even their current best efforts are not enough.

    Maybe you don't feel disheartened by, say, Bells' or Tiassa's posts, but I do.

    Actually, I have been posting for a while now just because I've been trying to figure out how come people can (mis)interpret things the way they do.

    Just look at this forum. Which posters do better? Which posters prevail? What is the strategy of these posters?

    That said, I can't keep up with the posters in this thread anymore, so I'm bowing out, also per James R's suggestion-request.
  8. Bells Staff Member

    You feel disheartened at the thought that men who rape and/or sexually harass women should be held responsible for their behaviour and that it is upon them to stop instead of blaming the women for the men's behaviour? Because that has essentially been my stance (and Tiassa's and many others) in this and other threads. Is that what you find disheartening?
  9. mtf Banned Banned

    No, the way you twist things around. I can't keep up with you, like I already said.
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Borrowing the Moment

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    Click for what the fuck.

    Pardon me while I step on your eyeball.

    Actually I just wanted to exploit your question in order to remind of the only affirmative argument our neighbor has put forward:

    • Should people not compete? If catcalling gets to you, if it throws you off your game, it means it is an effective strategy for winning the competition against you (the competition can be about anything from getting the job that is currently yours to getting your attention). (#425↑)

    • Well, then it could be something else he wants, some resource that he believes she has and he lacks. That resource can be material or psychological. (#429↑)

    • If I was in the position where I saw a beautiful woman, someone who attracted my attention, and I were a young single man, if I really wanted to get to know her, I might try opening a dialogue with a compliment, risking rejection on the gamble that she might respond in kind. (#436↑)

    It would seem the question isn't about holding men responsible for doing wrong, per se.

    It would appear to be about something even more dangerous.

    I would, then, (ahem!) borrow the moment for a point that absolutely must be made, reiterated, and driven through until it gets through: This is dangerous.

    So, yeah. Please do pardon me for stepping on your eyeball. Normally that's a funny joke except, you know, it isn't actually funny.
  11. Confused2 Registered Senior Member

    I don't understand your point. Is it:-
    Society (as it exists) is dangerous?
    Men are dangerous?
    Just being a woman is to be in danger?
    Everybody (men especially) should be 'different'?
    Something else?

    Please clarify.
  12. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

    mtf said this: "Wait, I think I get it: _Anyone_ who dares to do anything but vehemently agree with anything Tiassa, Bells, and some others say, is, in the view of Tiassa, Bells etc. a misogynist, rape advocate, victim blamer etc."

    I have felt exactly the same way.
    Remarkably for one of my age and experience I have felt bullied by them.
    While their intentions may be sincere their posts come across as knee jerk reactions.
    Their misinterpretation of my posts and those of mtf is not accidental. I view it as a deliberate character assassination based on who knows what.

    If their intent is to promote the safety of women from predatory men they are going the wrong way about it. Defaming the motives and beliefs of persons on the same side of the fence because they ask awkward questions, or do not align 100% with their views is despicable and cowardly and ignorant. Their actions, their words and their attitudes do their cause, their reputations and this site, no favours. They disgust me.
    Yazata and cluelusshusbund like this.
  13. Bells Staff Member

    What was it that you said? Context and content?

    These were your words, yes? You were not channeling anyone while typing this? You were not possessed by a nefarious spirit while saying this? These were your words...?

    The issue that arose with you, Ophiolite, is that your post completely and utterly ignores the context and content of what women endure. Just as it ignores the dangers and attempts to treat it as a non issue.

    Worse still, you attempted to change the narrative and frankly set up a completely ridiculous scenario, as though you were trying to indicate when women should feel threatened (the ubiquitous 2:00am alone in the alley story, that so many have tried to use before you, fell into the exact same hole you dug for yourself) and when they should not (the presumably daytime scenario which attempts to pass off street harassment as something harmless).. And this came after your equally ridiculous examples..

    But you utterly failed to account for what actual (real life) women experience. No, not at 2:00am in dark alleyways, which you determined when they should or are entitled to feel threatened. But in broad daylight, on busy streets, while going about their daily lives.

    To suggest that they should only be entitled to feel offended...

    How are we meant to interpret that, exactly? Men are murdering women in the street if said women act "offended", ignore, walk away, tell the men to fuck off, when harassed. There is no actual safe space for women to retreat to when it comes to street harassment. We do not know if the guy we are ignoring or telling to fuck off or give a "polite yet non-committal reply" is going to walk away or become violent. And this isn't the 2:00am dark alleyway scenario you enacted, to tell us that this is when we should really be entitled to feel threatened. Broad daylight. Women being injured or killed. On a daily basis around the world.

    We do not have the options that you have. Why? Because you are more than likely never to experience this type of street harassment if you are not a woman or transgender.

    Context and content.. When you go out of your way to trivialise the reality of sexual harassment of women in the way that you have, you are completely ignoring "context and content".

    How do you think you came across, when you declared that I and other women should only be entitled to feel offended if sexually harassed on the street, when the reality is that it often becomes physical harassment and tragically, can end up with the woman either dead or injured?

    I mean, is this the part that I say thank you for allowing me the right to be entitled to be offended?

    Is this the part where I thank you for listing when you believe I should only be entitled to feel threatened?

    Well gee, shucks, thanks Ophiolite. Because without you, I would never have been able to tell the difference of when I should be entitled to feel offended or in danger.

    Do you have any idea of just how condescending you sounded?

    The "extreme example" you came up with and the sarcastic comment about notarised permission.. Really, was that meant to be a joke? That's what you considered to be extreme? While you completely ignore and attempt to negate the fact that women are being beaten, stabbed, choked, run over by cars, shot for saying no or ignoring street harassment. You treated street harassment being discussed in this thread as being a non-issue. Mere communication. And the notarised permission comment.. You openly downplayed and turned street harassment and sexual harassment into something trivial, an eye-roll statement, not really worthy of addressing or thinking about.

    Put simply, you not only attempted to change the subject and narrative, you also trivialised the actual danger that exists for women and our experiences when it comes to street harassment. And worse, you tried to mansplain the harassment I endure in doing so.

    Believe me, Ophiolite, the disgust you feel about me in no way matches the disgust, disappointment and dismay I felt when I read your arguments in this thread.
  14. mtf Banned Banned

  15. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    What does that signify?
  16. mtf Banned Banned

    I deleted a post.
  17. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    You could have stated that in the first place.
  18. Confused2 Registered Senior Member

    Of dark streets and dark nights.
    A while back my wife pointed out that men approaching on her side of the street made made her nervous. Since then I automatically cross the street if I see a girl approaching. On one occasion I was hailed with a cheery "Good evening.". A pleasant encounter on a dark street on a dark night. Bells and others may think what they write doesn't influence anyone - but it all goes in.
  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    [ duplicate ]
    This generally gets the message across.

    ( This is only an issue because there is a member here who does* use "..." with no explanation, as a cheap discussion tactic.)

    *did. They've since been infracted for it.

    Carry on.

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  20. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member


    If anything makes me feel shame at being a male of the species, it's stepping on an elevator with a woman alone, and seeing her surreptitously and automatically going through a series of subtle protective steps.

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    I'm no threat, but she does not have the luxury of assuming so.
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    I would ask you to read through the construction again:

    (1) Catcalling as effective competitive strategy.

    (2) In order to obtain what one wants.

    (3) Applied to disrupting a woman in order to hit on her.​

    The functional result is an endorsement of catcalling―sexual harassment―as a means of romancing, courting, or otherwise pursuing interest in a woman by throwing her off her game.

    Personally, I think the danger stands out clearly.

    Additionally, it seems worth noting that mtf's argument also reminds, for instance, that rape isn't about lust but power. I mean, think about it: In order to woo her, I must throw her off her game and defeat her tactically. It really doesn't sound like a healthy start for a romantic, trusting relationship; it doesn't really sound like a safe hookup.

    There's a joke about the rise of feminism, that I could really fancy her if it wasn't for all the black and purple bruises around her ankles. Okay, it's obscure, but here's a new one, just to show how far we've come: Ooh, I fancy her. Therefore I must deceive, confuse, threaten, and exhaust her into submission.

    I mean, seriously, it's not even about falling in love; it's about seeing a desirable target and trying to conquer, subjugate, or otherwise defeat her.

    Which, in turn, is really, really dangerous.
  22. mtf Banned Banned

    You're such a romantic.

    The love of a man for a woman and a woman for a man is often the floor to which people fall after the collapse of other dreams. It is held to be solid when nothing else is, and though it frequently gives way and dumps them into a basement of despair, it still enjoys a reputation of dependability. No matter that this reputation is illogical — it still flourishes and will continue to flourish regardless of what is said in any book. Love, or possibly the myth of love, is the first, last, and sometimes the only refuge of uncomprehending humanity. What else makes our hearts beat so fast? What else makes us swoon with feeling? What else renders us so intensely alive and aching? The search for love — the sublime, the nebulous, the consuming — remains sacred in a world that increasingly despises the sacred. When the heroic and the transcendental are but memories, when religious institutions fill up with bureaucrats and social scientists, when nobody believes there is a sky beyond the ceiling, then there seems no other escape from the prison of self than the abandon of love. With a gray age of spiritual deadness upon us, we love, or beg for love, or grieve for love. We have nothing higher to live for.

    Indeed, many take it on faith that romantic love is the highest thing to live for. Popular literature, movies, art, and music tirelessly celebrate it as the one truth accessible to all. Such love obliterates reason, as poets have long sweetly lamented, and this is part of its charm and power, because we want to be swept up and spirited out of our calculating selves. "Want" is the key word, for in the spiritual void of modern life the wanting of love becomes increasingly indistinguishable from love itself. So powerful, so insistent is it that we seldom notice that the gratification is rare and the craving relentless. Love is mostly in anticipation; it is an agony of anticipation; it is an ache for a completion not found in the dreary round of mundane routine. That we never seem to possess it in its imagined fullness does not deter us. It hurts so bad that it must be good.

    Practically nobody questions the supremacy of romantic love, which is good enough reason to do a little poking around the foundations of its pedestal.
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    You say that like it means something.

    Quit changing the subject.

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