Degrees of Misogyny

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Bowser, Nov 13, 2015.

  1. PhysBang Valued Senior Member

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    And you are willingly ignoring the context of millions of women and how millions of men treat them.
     
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  3. Bells Staff Member

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    Exactly!

    Well said.
     
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  5. mtf Banned Banned

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    The way some people are misrepresenting and misconstruing some people's statements really isn't helping their cause.
     
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  7. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    That is really quite offensive.

    I was addressing a specific point. The claim, made by someone, that persons in public have a right not to be spoken to. That is arrant nonsense and focusing on that generic objection, wherein you conflate aggressive speech with any speech, you automatically brand a large portion of the population (male and female) as either mysogynist or idiot.

    Let us address the language and the behaviour and the actions that are harmful to women and those that are harmful to men, indeed - for fucks sake - can we just address what harms people regardless of their age, sex, nationally, ethnicity, etc. Anything that is harmful, let's address it. But don't derail the whole fucking process by nit picking meaningless generalisations.

    If I were a conspiracy theorist I would deduce that your intention is actually to harm and demean women. Since, I am not I conclude you are in fact, in this context, a well meaning fool.
     
  8. mtf Banned Banned

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    You're barking up the wrong tree, to your own detriment. Although, the ones you should be barking at don't post much on online forums.
     
  9. mtf Banned Banned

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    The problem with the "anti-rape camp" is that they have, implicitly, a very similar value system as the patriarchists and machists they oppose.

    I heard an advocate for women's rights say that a "woman's life is destroyed after rape." Which is exactly how patriarchists and machists think.
     
  10. Daecon Kiwi fruit Valued Senior Member

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    Are you sure about the context? Maybe the misogynists are regarding a womans value to be destroyed, as in "damaged goods"?
     
  11. mtf Banned Banned

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    Yes, I am sure about the context. Strangely, there are advocates for women's rights who say things like a "woman's life is destroyed after rape." After one rape victim committed suicide, one such advocate for women's rights said, "What else could she have done? Her life was ruined because she was raped."
    This is absolutely horrible, coming from an advocate for women's rights. Apparently, such advocates think so little of women, that they, just like patriarchists and machists, consider women to be "perishable goods." This is absolutely horrible.

    Advocates for women's right have a legitimate concern, but the way they are often handling it is not helping their cause, it's making things worse.
     
  12. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    If you use this forum topic as a barometer, the majority of liberals demonstrate how poorly they treat men. They stereotype men and blame all men, but liberal men, with a one size fits all. It is possible liberals are creating their own reality, by confusing cause and affect.

    As an analogy, if I call you a name, you might get mad and call me a name back. I might then use that to justify calling you an even more hurtful name. Who is at fault for this conflict? Is it the first person who started it, or the last one who calls the last name? What we need to do is see who is started it. It is like two children fighting, with the bully child often blaming their victim, when mother walks in. She has to unravel what happened in the very beginning. You can't just go with the one who complains the most, since many bullies are also con artists.

    When I was young women were placed on a pedestal by the men. The matriarch of the family was the boss at home. Even if her husband was high powered in business, at home his wife and the mother of this children, ruled the roost. She had control over the family budget and could lead the family with that budget through all the annuals cycles. The men were not calling women names at that point or else the women would not be on that pedestal. The women could successfully manage all this.

    It was the feminists who started the name calling. They began to blame the men for all their perceived problems. If you call men haters and cavemen, they have right to respond. They do not have to turn the other cheek, like a good Christian, which may be part of the dynamics that was expected at the transition; atheism bully. The Judeo-Christian ethics played an important role in what placed women high on the pedestal. The genes of the Jewish mother decided if one was Jewish, while Christians had mother Mary; highest female in modern religion.

    One possible source of confusion for the women, was since the old fashion men placed women on the pedestal, when the feminists appeared, the feminists assumed they also ruled the roost; covered under that pedestal umbrella. Some men went along to become feminized. They assumed the matriarch knew what she was doing. But not all men saw the changes were in the best interests of their families and children; divorce and double expenses.

    The women lost their right be on the pedestal, based on cause and affect, but continued to name call, as though the pedestal was their birth right. But to many men, if women wished to be like the men, they were now under the rules of men, which means no pedestal. Cause and affect was now in affect, with feminists the first bullies who started the name calling.
     
  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Citation required.
     
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    And when shown what you wrote, your complaint would turn into personal and professional exposure; there are places, some of them in Europe, where what you wrote could end a career.

    You chose to defend sexual harassment by arguing↑, "It is useful for the society as a whole that it does not forbid any conversation between strangers".

    Which also means the "conversation" in which someone threeatens to rape and murder a child ought not be forbidden.

    And if you don't like that implication, too bad. Think your arguments through on the front side, because your best excuse is intellectual sloth, you're doing it wrong.

    So quit crying.
     
  15. mtf Banned Banned

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    It was a spoken conversation.
     
  16. Bells Staff Member

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    Oh please.

    You also said that women who are sexually harassed are "entitled" to be offended and if it is in some dark alley and she is alone at 2:00am, then she is entitled to feel threatened. While ignoring the realities of what happens to women at all hours, day or night, when they are sexually harassed. But I thank you for granting us the right to be "entitled". Because really, that was the cherry on top of all the offensive (and frankly downright stupid) things you had already said.

    So yes, let us address the language and behaviour and the actions that are harmful to women and those that are harmful to men.. How about when we start with you?

    How about we start with your openly defending sexual harassment on the street? You want to start there? Or would you prefer we skip ahead to where you used the idiotic scenario of a woman in a dark alley at 2:00am and how it is only then that she is entitled to feel threatened, while ignoring the reality that harm comes to women in broad daylight, on busy streets and on public transport by the very men who are sexually harassing them by way of 'street harassment'... You know? The time slot you determined the woman would only be entitled to feel.. What was it that you said? Ah yes.. that the woman would only be entitled to feel offended..?

    When you spend your time nitpicking and creating ridiculous scenarios to excuse and determine when a woman should feel threatened from street harassment, you don't really have the right to complain about anyone "derailing the whole fucking process by nit picking meaningless generalisations"..

    Well, they would be right.

    Rape is soul destroying. It ruins you and crushes you. Most are able to pick up a semblance of reality, but life is never the same after being raped. Ever. In that sense, a woman's life is destroyed after rape, because she can never go back to who she was, the very life she led and most importantly how she was, prior to being raped. Many suffer from symptoms of PTSD, many suffer from panic attacks, nightmares, intimacy issues, trust issues, fear of going out, fear of being around other men, fear of being alone and being with people. How can you think it is strange that people say a woman's life is destroyed after rape? It isn't strange at all. That is pretty much the one thing that rape victims share. Their life is destroyed and they somehow have to try to cope with what happened to them and try to get past it enough to allow them to live a semblance of a normal life. It is haunting. It isn't something that just goes away.

    Or do you think it's something women simply shower and all is hunky dory again like nothing had happened?

    And?

    Trauma like that can and often causes severe depression which yes, does sometimes lead to suicide. Her life was ruined because she was raped. She opted to kill herself to not suffer the pain that goes with being raped. A lot of rape victims suffer and a lot commit suicide as a result. What could she have done? I don't know. I can't give you the answer to that question because I haven't found it yet. Some opt to go a day at a time and for others, they cannot cope with it. Hence the tragedy.

    I'm sorry, what?

    No, mtf, it's not that they think so little of women. They understand and realise that for some of these women, the pain and horror that they have endured is so much for them that it drives them to suicide. It's understanding that the crime is horrible enough that it can and does drive some to suicide. And many in society, who belittle rape victims, by dismissing their pain or assuming that they can or should just get back to normal like nothing had happened, or worse, expect women to get past it and return to normal and even worse, who set expectations or start questioning the woman about her actions and blaming her for her rape, contribute to the downward spiral that often drive rape victims to suicide.

    So yeah, can the faux outrage. Seen it too many times to take your faux outrage seriously. No one is buying it.

    Pray tell, how? By understanding that rape is bloody horrific in ways that cannot be described? You honestly don't have a clue, do you? Or perhaps you do but simply choose not to care and instead, pretend to be outraged by those dastardly evil feminists who demand that men stop harassing and raping women.

    Let me guess, you don't think defending sexual harassment of women on the street makes it worse?
     
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  17. mtf Banned Banned

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    Last edited: Jul 29, 2016
  18. Bells Staff Member

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    Having never spoken to you about rape before, mtf, perhaps you should cite your sources of the feminists you spoke to. Remember, I was responding to your ridiculous comments about rape victims where you posted those quotes.

    Trying to now change the narrative and twist things around is not going to end well for you. I was pointing out that rape is a deeply traumatic event and some women never get over it to the point where they do commit suicide. I was responding to your ridiculous scoffing about how it ruins a woman's life. Because apparently you are being more helpful by treating it with such derision.

    So no, don't try and change the narrative. Because it really is the worst course of action you can try to take at this point.
     
  19. mtf Banned Banned

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    This is what our culture teaches us, and then it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    If you wouldn't have such a vivid imagination about what it is that I (and many others) supposedly think, we might actually have a conversation.


    If you function as any kind of advocate for women's rights, then you should have an answer. Or you should stay away until you find one.


    Have your actions led to a decrease of rape and rape threats?
    Have potential rapists changed their minds because of the things you say and do?

    Do you have any statistics to back up your approach?


    You guess way too much.
     
  20. mtf Banned Banned

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    You proved my point.
     
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Sometimes it is. An assault is a threat of harm; assault and battery is a threat of harm followed by actual harm. To be an assault it has to suggest harm AND be credible. A guy on a TV show that says "I want to take you home and do things to you" cannot be considered an assault, because there is no credible threat to a viewer. A guy who says that to a woman in a dark alley? That would most likely be considered assault - even if they do not follow through.
    Agreed.
    It is indeed a right to not be spoken to in certain ways in public. (In other words, you could go to jail for just saying certain things to a person on a street.)
    Being in public does not give anyone an unlimited right to do whatever they choose.
     
  22. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    I chosed to defend the freedom of communication between strangers, not sexual harassment.

    And if there is a country where such a defense would end a career, I would not even try to start a career in such a totalitarian pothole.
    No. As well as it does not mean the "conversation" of a murderer with his victim before he kills it.

    It means a defense of a usual, average, typical conversation between strangers, as it is common, usual, average, in a normal civilized culture.

    Ok, it maybe that America is completely uncivilized. There is a lot of evidence in this forum for this, in form of completely uncivilized behavior of many American participants here. When I was in America, I have not observed such a low level. But maybe things have become worse. Up to now I have attributed this to the general low culture of communication in the internet, not particularly to Americans. But in the civilized societies where I live nobody would even name a "conversation" in which someone threatens to rape and murder a child a conversation.

    So, if American conversation typically includes threats of rape and murder, I'm sorry, I was not aware of this side of American civilization.
     
  23. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    I think the issue is how we define harassment. Does a compliment, especially when offered to a women, qualify as harassment?
     

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