Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by Captain_Crunch, Jun 20, 2002.
Define intelligence (as in which meaning you are applying).
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Intelligence is a measure of one's ability to defeat opponents through logical debate?
Based on Jung's research, the average person has a primary function and a secondary function that are subject to nearly full conscious control, with the primary better. The two remaining functions are not fully subject to conscious control and often have unconscious contamination which tends to make them more subjective.
He also found certain patterns such as intellect and emotion are opposites, therefore only one of these two can be under conscious control. The other will more unconscious . Sensation and intuitions are also opposites. The opposite of the primary function is the most unconscious, while the opposite of the secondary is third in conscious functionality.
For example, many scientists typically have the functional order, intellect, sensation, intuition and emotion in order of conscious functionality. They can think and reason, based on hard sensory data. They can also be semi-intuitive but tend to let sensory data decide, since the sensory function is more under conscious control. The intuition is not as on demand. The emotional function is the least conscious, and not as developed as the other three.
Often in these forums there is a lot of emotional debate that borders on compulsive and immature. This is logical, since there are so many people who are intelligent (primary) and therefore emotion can get unconsciously biased and compulsive.
Einstein was intellect, intuition, sensation, emotion. He could reason and do tough math, molding the math on his intuitions of things, such as relativity, that were at that time, beyond the sensory systems and tangible proof. As such, sensation was his third. He could control that but like to think off in the ozone layer. His emotional intelligence was last. This is why he didn't know how to politic, which is the art of emotional massage.
The point of all this is there eight combinations of these four functions (due to two sets of opposites) which define eight different types of people. Most people are more comfortable with their strengths than they are with their weaknesses. The IQ test are designed by those with a certain function sequence for those with a similar function sequence. Other forms of intelligence, such as art or music, which other people see as important, reflect the strengths of their own function sequence.
A better test would try touch all the combinations of the four functions so each type of person is represented and then take an average. This would tell how well all the mental tools average out in terms of a full spectrum of adaptative intelligence.
With a computer, there are benchmark tests, which test a spectrum of functions. We don't compare computers based on one criteria, like video performance, since this will favor only one, instead of measure the range of overall performance. That would be fixing the deck.
In terms of my own function sequence, I am intuition, intellect, emotion and sensation. My intuition is what allows me to generate ideas. My brain keeps simulating and generating output. My intellect then organizes the output data and forms logical explanations. My emotion function as third, is fairly conscious. This allow me to push emotional buttons or adapt which helps with the presentaton of my writing.
My fourtgh fuction is sensation. This is my most unconscious, with this unconsciousness connected to over sensitivity to sensory stimulus. I tend to get sensory overload easily, which is hard to control, since I pick up too much input at the same time.
So I prefer quiet or natural place,s where I can regulate the amount of sensory input. I sometimrs need to use alcohol to deaden my sensory systems, if I need to be around more stimulus. On the other hand, this high level of sensivity allowed to percieve very subtle things.
The religion person, are often of the combination intuitive-emotion-intellect-sensation. Their religion intuitions are sort of simulations that give them faith. This is often based on the communal feelingss within human and community relationships. The intellect being third often means less conscious control, so dogma is other important more than the constant flow of logic and questions, With the sensation function most unconscious, it can make their animal nature more unconscious, compulsive, or overly sensitive. They feel and thinks reasons to control this.
Which function controls the amount of drivel you put out?
Wow, umm, just wow.
Okay, well for starters your brain contains 50 to 100 billion neurons. I'm amazed that with all that power you actually think its possible to simplify those things down into less then a dozen distinct "functions" (an inappropriate term for it anyways).
You probably spent two dozen neurons coming up with such a poor concept and then the other 49,999,999,976 neurons to make it sound profound.
If I had some tips it would be this, first, save some of that wee bit of horsepower you call your brain in order to word your thoughts and ideas without coming off as a know it all nor pretentious. Secondly, use some more of that wee brain power to actually take the time to spell check and grammar check it.
If you take any pride in your work whatsoever then at the very least you should have the dignity to check it over first.
I would tell you to right that all down in a mental note, but something tells me your out of paper.
P.S. Alcohol + philosophy = shit.
Wtf is this thread?
Just a bunch of pretentious people trying to make themselves wise in order to elevate themselves above everyone else.
This isn't a debate nor a discussion, at most it is nothing more then a talent show.
I will make it simple for you guys:
Intelligence is nothing more then an abstract concept made up by our never ceasing need to quantify the world around us and to understand who and what we are.
Here is what is happening here, you guys are trying to define an infinitely broad subject, for example:
Define the USA:
How do you define the USA in five sentences and capture the entire essence of it? Where do you start with? The dollar? The military? Mcdonald's? Politics? People? Hot dogs?
You simply can't, you couldn't define such a broad concept if given a lifetime.
That's what's going on here.
that is wrong . The United states stands for one over all other things . It is breed into us . Even the most social of us has it breed into them if they are a U.S. citizen . You can say it all in one word . Freedom
I thought it was life, liberty, and the pursuit of money...?
I'm not sure you can even say that the US is made up of people with the same "breeding"; you have to explain why there are two major political parties with quite different points of view--pandering to different breeds of people, by the look.
The essence, I think, is that the US is populated by different groups who very occaisonally agree with each other.
The symbolism of the United states stands for freedom . Freedom from oppression . That is what Harmon Greathouse fought for and the rest of the Greathouse clan . What you all do with it from here on out is up to us . I choose freedom every time and Me guns choose freedom every time also . I know we got some social programs and all , but that don't take away your right to many guaranteed freedoms we enjoy in the U.S. One of them being the right to express your self in speech. Course we got the insight to riot thing you can get you arrested , but still Howard Stern would not last five minutes in some of the other places in the world . We are Free in America . I am . Don't know about the rest of you . I will die free too . Cause I will Die Free . Unless they throw Me in prison for something I didn't anticipate. Other than that I will die free , unless some hookers get a hold of Me again and look Me up as there sex toy , but besides that and prison I will die free . Unless I get buried by a mountain from an earthquake dislodging a big pile of dirt and rocks then I would not be very free at all but then I would be dead so If the rock killed me at just the right time theoretically I could still be free before the rock killed me then I would have died free
That comes from the salivary glands...you know, as in you open your mouth and drivel comes out?
Freedom to do what?
Plus, India for example has more amendments to their constitution then the US, does that make them freer then us?
Me-Ki, your argument is so laughable right here that I am half convinced its a total joke.
Although intelligence is hard to define, it takes less intelligence to criticize than it does to create. That we do know.
Human and animal intelligence is based on the unique nature of neurons, which are designed fundamentally different than computer memory. With neurons, the rest state is a state of highest energy. It takes 90% of the neurons cellular energy to create and maintain the membrane potential. Once this energy potential is created, it is called the rest state (ambiguous term). When the neuron fires this energy is lowered; membrane potential lowers. The rest state of computer memory, on the other hand, is at lower energy so it is stable for long term storage.
What is useful about the neural arrangement or starting at high energy (rest state), is there is always the potential for spontaneous firing, since the pull of the universe is toward lower energy. Computer memory, by beginning at low stable energy has little potential to spontaneously fire. Your hard drive is designed to not change spontaneously or else the data would get corrupt. Intelligent computers could be made with memory hardware changes. We would need memory this is full of energy and therefore unstable and wants to fire. But like neurons, has to be renewable back to high energy after each firing, for the perpetual spontaneous firing of AI consciousness.
Neuron design also has another key feature needed for intelligence. The membrane potential is based on the segregation of sodium and potassium ions. This lowers the entropy at the membrane. This lowering of entropy at the neuron membrane takes a lost of neuron energy; 90%. This puts the neurons at odds with another laws of universe, which want to increase entropy.
What is slick about this design is any form of neuron firing will increase the entropy. The laws of the universe want to fire neurons, to lower their energy and to increase their entropy. Since the brain and neurons will constantly restore low entropy and higher energy (rest state) the new degrees of freedom (ways to fire via synapses) are restored back to order; neural patterns. Even these patterns, by defining low entropy, will have the potential to change into higher entropy; intelligence.
If you look at long versus short term memory, long term memory stays the same and therefore is less subject to entropy increase. The brain can create lng term patterns no subject to change. Short term memory changes quickly and often and therefore is much more subject to universal entropy.
The letters and words of language are important since they are part of our long term memory. At a larger level of memory storage these can undergo spontaneous entropy increase; spontaneous conversation. Some of this is stored in long term memory building upon patterns in the brain.
Please do try to learn what the "laws of the universe" are.
I like how you regurgitated 90% of this impressive speech from outside sources in order to make the last 10% seem actually credible.
Most of your post was entirely irrelevant.
The universe prefers lowest energy and highest entropy. These are basic laws of thermodynamics. If we were to use energy/work to push something in the opposite direction (toward higher energy and lower entropy), we would increase the potential for its energy to lower and its entropy to increase. This is common sense. I am writer not a reader. I took Walt Whitman's advice many years ago. He said read all you can from the great minds. When you have done that forget it all and start to think of your own ideas.
Neuron use up to 90% of their energy maintaining the membrane potential because this not a stable situation, by natural design. If left alone, the membrane would naturally move toward lower energy and higher cationic entropy due to the universal potentials. By adding energy constantly, we get this flux we call neuron firing, since the direction of neuron entropy and energy is in being pushed in the opposite direction of the universe, while also being led back by the universe. It is alive not machine.
I invented this or rather I should say, I needed to make these connections conscious, since the existing theory does not explain things that well. The question of intelligence is always asked and never answered well enough using existing theory. I thought the traditions needed a little help. I am developing a range of theory needed to answer that question. There are a few layers that need to be defined before I can bring it all together.
The conscious mind is a high entropy and low energy phenomena. This arrangement allows us to use free will to fire neurons; memory recall, focus sensory systems so they will fire neurons, etc. The sequence of the four functions tells us which aspects of the brain's firmware is more accessible for the conscious mind to increase universal entropy. We can't control all 100%, because you don't wish to drain the brain. Dementia is when there is too much entropy and not enough order.
Consider this hypotherical situation. A good friend is very angry at you for kissing his girlfriend and wants to slug you. This is something that is going to happen, since it is fair and due justice. This is analogous to the universal entropy needing to act on the induced lowered entropy of the brain. The brain will have to take a hit. Nothing personal, just universal justice.
If you are smart, you would provide a hardened target for his rage, that will hurt you the least, rather than let him hit you randomly. You may offer your stomach for him to hit, so he can get the rage out of his system. Now you are friends again.
The brain is going against universal entropy (kiss his girlfriend) so the universal is going to collect one way or the other. So the idea is to offer the universe (increasing entropy) a non destructive target. I mentioned higher and lower entropy via short and long term memory; The short term memory will pay the fiddler and take the punch. It is one hardened target and is able to bouce back.
The ego is a high entropy phenonena since it induces neuron firing to do its many willful things. It is the bull in the china shop of neuron creating entropy within the brain, with the brain picking up after the whirlwind; reestablishing the potentials. The four functions let the universal entropy have its due (offered targets), with the conscious 1-2 functions like the hardened stomach being offered. This gives will power and universal conviction to the ego (I am universe here me roar; meow) without destruction of the entire mechanism. The ego helps the universe, as an agent of entropy, but can't drain the brain dry, since the more senstive targets of a given brain are not under ego control. The unconscious will economize these.
The next thing I will discuss are the personality firmware. These can be understood as genetically controlled firmware programs which define human nature. These are empty at birth and progress both via genetics and via interaction with the environment. It is not fully software but is also based on neuron hardware and its induced low entropy/high energy.
A good visial analogy is a pepper seed that will become a pepper plant. Within the DNA of that tiny pepper seed is the potential to form a large charactersitic plant with its leaves and fruit. This development is driven by genetics and solar energy. This creates the potential to absorb water and nutrients via osmosis. The firmware each have their own genetic plan which changes with stages of life. Since this neuron branching into structured firmware is lowering entropy (full of membrane potenital) the osmosis is associated with the inevitable neuron firing, such as induced by sensory input, helping to define the memory which will populate the structures of the plant.
For example, when you fall in love, this is the firmware of love. It is common to all humans (pepper plant) yet will also be specific to the individual based on their place and space and time (specific entropy induced by sensory and memory firings). Love is also compulsive and not completely subject to conscious control. The firmare is also defining a genetic neural shape (human nature) and has a given neuron stomach (so to speak) for the entropy to hit; whirlwinds of love. This is impacted by the entropy of the conscious mind makibg the effect collective yet personal.
Intelligence simply uses specfic firmware for each purpose.
Diarrhea of the mouth, constipation of ideas.
I don't think that qualifies as intelligent.
Prove to me it isn't just as intelligent as what you said.
Intellectual type of intelligence would add something rational to the discussion, pro or con. Emotional intelligence might try to distract the mind with words which have emotional appeal. I suppose it is half and half. An IQ test would not test this emotional intelligence. However, an expanded test would give scores for that too.
It is hard thinking outside the box, because you leave yourself out there for emotional bomb shells. The unknown makes many people uncomfortable, so there is always a defensive reaction, with emotional appeal almost sounding like it is making a rational contribution. Intelligence will assess this beyond the impulse to react irrationally.
Let me go back to the basics of living intelligence. The membranes of neurons, in their rest state, are based on higher energy and lower entropy due to the induced cationic gradients. This takes constant energy to maintain, since it goes opposite the direction of the universe, which will prefer net lower energy and net higher entropy.
This is useful to life, because it forces the universe to act, thereby enhancing and increasing the odds for change. The trick is set up the dam, while giving the universal potentials an outlet, while still retaining room for additional degrees of freedom; creative.
As an analogy, say we were building a house of cards. As the house gets larger and taller we need to be more and more careful because the entropy potential is compounding as we build into order. Just a little push can cause a chain reaction so all the order witin the house of cards will become a pile of choatic disorder. The universe would love that. The farther the brain can push toward the opposing direction of the universe, the more potential created for spontaneous change and chain reactions. This is why humans are so ingenius compared to animals.
All body movements and all the sensory systems will create neuron firing. These are all ways for the universe to lower energy and increase entropy. If you turn your head and scan the horizon with your eyes and ears, you are doing the bidding of the universe in terms of firing the neurons into lower energy and higher entropy. By setting up the opposing condition in the brain such activities have the endorsement of the universe. We are meant to learn since the universe needs us to knock dow the house of cards, as the brain keeps building it back.
Language was important because it created conscious order in the brain. There are certain things that don't change. The letters of an alphabet, don't suddenly change within us. That dam will hold. What can change are new combinations of letters to form new words and words in new arrangments to form new meaning.
Separate names with a comma.