December 7th

Discussion in 'History' started by Orleander, Nov 30, 2007.

  1. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    Finally a good argument out of you. None the less, my position remains. Naval Intelligence was talking about doing things to escalate tension with the Japanese, one year before pearl harbor. It is interesting that point by point they nearly did all the things listed in that memo. No it is not proven as fact that they were attempting to goad the Japs into an attack, however taking in all the things together and as a time line it seems quite clear to me. Embargo on strategic resources, militarizing the Philippines and other Pacific bases(Guam,Midway), lend/leasing and resources to China, freezing Japanese assets in America, beginning strategic bomber production, gearing up war material production, it seems pretty clear the future intentions of the U.S. Then you make a BIG fat juicy target at pearl harbor. You mean to tell me they didn't think having that many battleships in port for that long with increasing "public" tentions running high and they were taken by complete surprise by the attack?

    Why were the Carriers all at sea on Dec 7th, 1941, Buffalo? I honestly want any answer you've got to that one.

    Frankly even if the exact when/how was not known. Dereliction was not just on Kimmel and Short's shoulders. Intelligence and perhaps even at political levels should have been investigated.
     
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  3. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Read the report in full, it was a strategic assessment of the situation, it was not a recommendation for starting a war or a plane to do so.

    What? I used your own post to prove you wrong, your the one with out any good points of debate.

    You are blind to good debate points.
     
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  5. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Here is a answer that I know won't satisfy you but at the time of Pearl Harbor attack Aircraft were not considered Capital Ships, that Honor belonged to the Battleship, our tactics at that point in time were based around the Battleship, and the Battleship on line, and the Carrier was seen in a support role to the Battleship, scouting and protectionof the main fleet, it was only after Pearl Harbor, and a few hard lessons at the Coral Sea, and necessity that we moved to the Carriers as our main striking force, six months after Pearl Harbor.

    The carrier developed from what was seen as a supporting unit by naval theorists in the 1920s and 1930s (portable air-cover against annoying enemy scouts) to the main striking arm of a bluewater navy. The battleship, in development for more than three centuries to stand in a battleline, the centerpiece for nearly very navy in the world.

    Now show where there was any tactical doctrine before Pearl Harbor that used the Carriers as the main striking force of the Fleet, their was none.

    The importance of the Carriers was only first realized at the Battle of the Coral Sea, and only then did the U.S. start to move to a Carrier Centered Battle Strategy.
     
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  7. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    And you pick and choose what to debate. Your position is weak. What have to got to say to the U.S choosing political options they knew would lead to war and then not being prepared for it?
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2007
  8. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Monday morning quarterbacks are always right, they weren't there, and they never played in the game.

    My position is far from weak, it isn't based on conspiracy theories that pick and choose separate lines and paragraphs out of context to the whole, just as your;

    Just as you picked this Paragraph out of context to prove something and yet in the paragraph you picked the proof was stated that;

    One of the last conspiracy theories I read said the the JN-25 code was a manual code adapted from a cypher, in reality the JN-25 code was a machine generated code that used a machine very similar to Enigma Machine of the Germans, and at the beginning of WWII we weren't reading JN-25, at the time of Midway we were reading only about 8% of any given message.

    The other point is that when Japan launched the strike force for Pearl Harbor, the radio communications people were kept ashore sending false radio traffic, the;

     
  9. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    "We should not precipitate anything in the Orient that should hamper our ability to do this"

    BFD - My whole point was they were discussing strategies, of course not everyone is going to be for instigating a fight with Japan. You don't think I read that when I posted it? Putting it in large bold letters and "Shouting" real loud, does not make you win the arguement.
    Again, point by point, it was exactly what the U.S did.

    You wanna keep bringing up code? (I DIDN'T)
    Ok,

    Yes JN-25, was not broken, like completely cracked. However, there are conflicting reports on how many messages they were able to decrypt...and indeed the margin of error is unknown. I have heard that they had 7% of JN-25B code groups in 1941 and that might have been because of lack of manpower. Ok so, I don't give a fuck if they had 100%. Why? Because Japanese maintained complete communications silence for the attack(they even disabled the equipment). OMG Buff, i'm arguing your side again, you better put it in BOLD HUGE LETTERS. In case it wasn't clear, as I might not have blatently stated it, in your case I will make the exception since you don't even read the lines I write, let alone the implied message. I accept that Dec 7 was probably a surprise(carriers and b-17s did not find the Japs like they probably hoped - OPS BACKFIRE), however the inevitability of an immanent Pearl Harbor attack was a certainty that U.S Naval intelligence and probably the General Staff(if not the President!) was aware of.

    Now you've got me on the subject of codes....and i've got some time here to blab about them...

    The Dutch were freely passing their decrypts to the U.S(unknown content). Again why bring up coded messages we know nothing about. I do wonder why the Dutch would pass messages to the U.S so freely, or why they would think they would be useful to the U.S. I have read speculation they had everything to do with campaigning from Russia, to East Indies, to the Phillipines. The Phillipines, a whole other matter, feel free to open up another topic and I will detail what a dickhead MacArthur was.

    They had Magic, they had Purple. Of course nothing, nothing at all was said on them to indicated the Japanese would attack, right Buff?

    Wrong:

    One PURPLE Message(of many):

    Ok enough about Codes(I will stop if you will).

    Neither Admiral Kimmel nor General Short ever faced court martial. It is alleged this was to avoid disclosing information conspirators would not want to see made public. When asked about it(pearl), Kimmel replied, "Will historians know more later? Kimmel's reply to this was: ' ... I'll tell you what I believe. I think that most of the incriminating records have been destroyed. ... I doubt if the truth will ever emerge.' Brownlow, op. cit

    There is still a LOT of information available that is still classified. Maybe someday it will come to light.
     
  10. John99 Banned Banned

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    22,046
    Your Canadian. Just deal with it, theres plenty of Moosehead to go around and logs for the fire.
     
  11. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Nothing here to indicate a attack is being planned, if there is please high light the pertinent section.


    now one of the interesting thing is that this information was available to Churchill who because of security may not have been able to share it with Roosevelt, just as there were Purple messages that we weren't sharing with the British.

    The thing that you fail to recognize, is the inter-service rivalry that went on during that time frame, the Army and the Navy were in a constant battle for moneys from congress, they didn't co-operate with each other an any thing, they didn't share information, the same can be said of the political side, there were message intercepts that were kept from Roosevelt for fear of compromising the intelligence that we were reading Japanese code,
    but we still weren't reading JN-25, we had a start when we had figured out a way of spotting the 5 figure add on, but that changed in the year before Pearl Harbor when the Japanese changed the system of 5 figure add on.

    Now please show any intercepts that specifically name Hawaii, and Pearl Harbor as the point of attack, from all the information that I have ever seen the only mentions of Pearl Harbor were in hard copy messages, delivered by courier, point to point, never transmitted by radio traffic.
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,822
    What is normally done on December 7th?

    Is there any common practise? What is the day called?
     
  13. mikenostic Stop pretending you're smart! Registered Senior Member

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    http://www.holidayinsights.com/other/pearlharbor.htm

    That should answer both your questions. :thumbsup:
     
  14. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    Now you are are just being lame. Of course Church shared that one,(he circled it in RED - just like you like to do Buff) you know damn well he would have, knowing it would help U.S entry. I think i'm through argueing with you(I've read your other recent debates here and they are all the same - stubborn and pointless).
     
  15. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    25,817
    and since our flag on a pole attached to the porch, and can't be lowered, we tie a black ribbon to it.
     
  16. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    No I am being factual, there was not a free flow of information, to much territorial infighting for power and budget money, for that to happen, all you have to do is look at the fights that took place in Congress at that time, for funding between the Navy and the Army, and the miniscule funding for our intelligence services, plus the attitude of many in the government.

    I suggest that you read;

    http://www.pokerplayernewspaper.com/viewarticle.php?id=681

    in it it is shown that the best code breaker was not among the people invited back to MI-8 when we finally realized that we needed the ability to read foreign codes.

    Yes everybody back in those day were very jealous of their little fiefdoms, and were not willing to share because it might mean someone else might get the credit and more funding.
     
  17. Gawdzilla Sama Registered Senior Member

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    576
    I've spent decades looking into this matter, I was gifted with a full set of the Hearing back in 1965. (I was fourteen at the time.) Some interesting things have come to light since then.

    The "MAGIC" Background to Pearl Harbor lists the messages intercept by the Magic team and gives historical context for them. (Eight volumes)

    The Congressional Hearings into the Attack on Pearl Harbor. (39 volumes of testimony and evidence, and a Summary volume.)

    The Myths of Pearl Harbor. Top ten myths and their explanations, plus one jawdropping message from DC to Tokyo.

    "West Wind Clear", a study of the rumor that the "Winds code" activation message had been sent.

    The Pearl Harbor Attack Hearings, Additional Documents. Navigating the Hearings can be daunting, so I pulled the most pertinent documents out of the PDFs.
     
  18. river Valued Senior Member

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    9,528
    So your conclusion ?

    Did the US know in advance that the Japanese would attack Pearl Harbour ?

    And did the US intelligence crack the code between the US , and german embassies ?
     
  19. Gawdzilla Sama Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    576
    Picture this: FDR decides to let the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor without warning the troops there. Thousands of men are killed, many warships are immobilized or gone forever. We start the Pacific War with a major handicap in men and ships. (Remember, Enterprise was supposed to be in then, due on Saturday but slowed due to weather.)

    If this is discovered FDR will be one of the biggest criminals in US history.

    OR

    FDR finds out about the impending raid and Hawaii is completely ready. Opana Point radarmen Lockard and Elliot track the Nagumo Kido Butai's first wave in and scores of P-40s are in the air waiting for them. All the ships in the harbor are buttoned up tight and guns ready. Hundreds of guns open fire from the ships and the mobile AAA units place around the harbor. The Japanese lose the cream of their carrier pilots with little to show for it.

    If this happens FDR will be a hero for outwitting the dastardly attack.

    Which one would you chose?

    Why do you ask about the German embassies?
     

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