December 7th

Discussion in 'History' started by Orleander, Nov 30, 2007.

  1. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    tell him I said thank you.
     
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  3. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    No actually it would have been worse, President Wilson wanted a relatively mild end of the War, an reparations by the Germans, but the Victorious European Powers set about extracting every pound of flesh from the Germans for the cost of the war.

    President Wilson set in motion loans that were helping Germany pay its war debt until Hitler took power and declared a end to the reparations payment.

    These are the points that Wilson believed would have allowed Germany some Honor, and leave it with a viable economy.

    Fourteen Points, name given to the proposals of President Woodrow Wilson designed to establish the basis for a just and lasting peace following the victory of the Allies in World War I. The 14 proposals were contained in Wilson's address to a joint session of the U.S. Congress on January 8, 1918. The idealism expressed in them was widely acclaimed and gave Wilson a position of moral leadership among the Allied leaders. Opposition to various points on the part of the European Allies, however, developed at the conclusion of hostilities, and the attempt at practical application of the 14 points exposed a multilateral system of secret agreements between the European victors. In order to secure support of his 14th, and most important, point, which called for the creating of an “association of nations,” Wilson was compelled to abandon his insistence upon the acceptance of his full program. Wilson's 14th point was realized in the League of Nations, established as a result of the Paris Peace Conference (1919).

    In summary, the 14 points were as follows: (1) abolition of secret diplomacy by open covenants, openly arrived at; (2) freedom of the seas in peace and war, except as the seas may be closed in whole or part by international action for enforcement of international covenants; (3) removal of international trade barriers wherever possible and establishment of an equality of trade conditions among the nations consenting to the peace; (4) reduction of armaments consistent with public safety; (5) adjustment of colonial disputes consistent with the interests of both the controlling government and the colonial population; (6) evacuation of Russian territory, with the proviso of self-determination; (7) evacuation and restoration of Belgium; (8) evacuation and restoration of French territory, including Alsace-Lorraine; (9) readjustment of Italian frontiers along clearly recognizable lines of nationality; (10) autonomy for the peoples of Austria-Hungary; (11) evacuation and restoration of territory to Serbia, Montenegro, and Romania, granting of seaports to Serbia, and readjustment and international guarantee of the national ambitions of the Balkan nations; (12) self-determination for non-Turkish peoples under Turkish control and internationalization of the Dardanelles; (13) an independent Poland, with access to the sea; and (14) creation of a general association of nations under specific covenants to give mutual guarantees of political independence and territorial integrity.
     
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  5. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    The war of 1812 was with the British, not the Spanish.

    The War of 1812 (known as the American War of 1812 in Britain to distinguish it from the war with George Washington that occurred in the same year) was fought between the United States of America and the United Kingdom and its colonies, especially Upper Canada (Ontario), Lower Canada (Quebec), Nova Scotia, Bermuda and Newfoundland.
     
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  7. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Your Texas thing,

    The Battle of the Alamo was a 19th-century battle between the Republic of Mexico and the rebel Texian forces, including both Anglos (ethnic Europeans) and Tejanos (ethnic Mexicans in Texas), during the Texians' fight for independence — the Texas Revolution. It took place at the Alamo Mission in San Antonio, Texas (then known as "San Antonio de Béxar") in February and March 1836. The 13-day siege started Tuesday, February 23, 1836, and ended on Sunday, March 6, 1836, with the capture of the mission and the death of nearly all the Texian and Tejano defenders,

    Was between Texas and Mexico, Texas became a Independent Republic on April 21, 1836 after winning a war for independence from Mexico.

    Texas joined the United States in 1845, by Treaty.
     
  8. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    You know he did, and you were upset by them, but you weren't going to refute him because he would have seen that as evidence that you were President Roosevelt and the OSS come from the grave to conspire?

    He was listing wars, and apparently not being up to the high standards of academic inquiry that are usually found at 11pm on a message board.
     
  9. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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    you know the attack on pearl harbor was a failure right?
     
  10. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    I never said anything about codes. All I said was some people high up in U.S Naval Intelligence were talking about trying to get a war started with Japan one year before they attacked.
     
  11. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    We'd also been monitoring Japan's communications for years, although getting useful information was sporadic.
     
  12. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    And exactly were these people? where did they work? and for whom did they work?

    War gaming and strategic planning isn't trying to get a war started, and to start a war by losing your fleet isn't logical.

    Now here is some reading for you about the Crypto war, and the capabilities of the U.S. Military to see what Japan was doing.

    http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/ultra/nwc-01.html
     
  13. maxg Registered Senior Member

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    The point he was making wasn't that America worked to negotiate a bad settlement for Germany but that without American intervention the Allies (or whatever they called themselves) would not have had as strong a position and would have had to negotiate a more balanced settlement.

    I don't think the US should have gotten involved in WWI. It wasn't in our interest and it wasn't like one side had a clear moral advantage in regards to the start of the conflict or its conduct. WWII was another matter.
     
  14. madanthonywayne Morning in America Staff Member

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    I wear my flag tie and fly the flag at my house. Also, I celebrate my oldest son's birthday.
     
  15. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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  16. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Strategic assessments are not plans for or lobbing of a war, and your post show that it was decided to do nothing to shift the balance of power in the Pacific at that time because of our interest in Britain and that at the least they should end the war in a stalemate with Germany and Italy.

    Comment by Captain Knox

    It is unquestionably to out general interest that Britain be not licked - just now she has a stalemate and probably cant do better. We ought to make it certain that she at least gets a stalemate. For this she will probably need from us substantial further destroyers and air reinforcements to England. We should not precipitate anything in the Orient that should hamper our ability to do this - so long as probability continues.
     
  17. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    The point is that America worked for a good settlement, that if it had been allowed to implement would have quashed the seeds that lead to the rise of Hitler, and the Nazis.

    The fact that the Victorious Europeans destroyed the Germany economy, with their punitive measures, and put Germany into a depression, planted the seed that eventually spread to the rest of the world, had Wilson plane been adopted, it just might have avoided the depression, the rise of Hitler, and the Nazification of Germany, but because of the Peace Agreement that was Imposed on Germany, by the revenge minded Victors the stage was set for just the kind of thing that happened, the rise of Hitler and the Nazis.
     
  18. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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    hitler even with out the treaty still probably managed to gain control of germany. he was a brilliant politician. evil and insane aswell
     
  19. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    But it would have made it that much more difficult to do so, people who have employment, are working, and their money has value are far less likely to want change, here is the price index for Germany starting in July, 1914:

    Wholesale Price Index

    July 1914........................1.0%

    Jan 1919.........................2.6%

    July 1919.........................3.4%

    Jan 1920........................12.6%

    Jan 1921........................14.4%

    July 1921.......................14.3%

    Jan 1922........................36.7%

    July 1922...................,..100.6%

    Jan 1923....................2,785.0%

    July 1923................194,000.0%

    Nov 1923...726,000,000,000.0%

    This set up a situation that Hitler took advantage of, a large portion of the population that was unemployed, lost all of their money, and starving, and what he couldn't accomplish at the ballot box, he accomplished with the S.A. Sturm Abteilung, the Head Breakers, the Brown Shirts.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2007
  20. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    evil, yes. Insane????
     
  21. Xev Registered Senior Member

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  22. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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  23. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, Hitler was truly insane.

    ABSTRACT - Adolf Hitler’s personality was investigated posthumously through the use of an informant version of the Coolidge Axis II Inventory (CATI),
    which is designed for the assessment of personality, clinical, and neuropsychological disorders. Five academic Hitler historians completed the CATI.
    The overall mean inter-rater correlation was moderately high for all 38 CATI scales’ T scores (median r = .72).
    On Axis I, the highest mean T scores across raters were Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (76), Psychotic Thinking (73) and Schizophrenia (69). On Axis II, the highest mean T scores on the CATI scales were Paranoid Personality Disorder (78), Antisocial Personality Disorder (78), Narcissistic Personality Disorder (77), and Sadistic Personality Disorder (76). Results of the present study support the reliability and preliminary validity of informant reports for psychological investigations of historical or contemporary figures.
     

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