Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by piffi, Aug 8, 2001.

  1. piffi Nixed Price Rack Registered Senior Member

    Science has told us that all of our experiences are there, in our heads, and that we just can't access them.

    Maybe in Near Death Experiences, all of the memories simply rewind as a last outburst of memory? Maybe, because of the mechanics and design of our brains by evolution, the part of the brain that shuts down last is the one that controls this? When people come back from the dead are they truly dead or are our systems of determining death simply too obscure to make judgements so soon?

    Imagine this: Someone has just had a stroke. Minutes later, paramedics arrive on the scene and pronounce her dead. However, in fact, part of her brain is still alive, and as a final gasp it is blowing through all the memories in rapid succession; every memory she has ever had. The final memories are the bright, brilliant tunnel she sees while being born, the god-like figure who greets her with open, loving arms, and perhaps the paradise of the womb. Because the fetus, at the time of those memories, was inept in making judgements and realistically thinking beyond the basic evolutionary tools it was originally given, could these memories be almost strikingly similar in comparison?

    Everyone who comes close to, or experiences, dying, would most likely have this same 'last gasp'. the ones who retell it to us are those who were privealged enough to have come back from the brink of dying and go on living. They are the lucky ones.
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  3. piffi Nixed Price Rack Registered Senior Member


    when I said 'as a last outburst of memory' in teh 2nd paragraph. i meant energy. sorry about the inconvienence. I am a horrible spellr when typing.
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  5. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

    Near death experiences have been studied to some degree. While we can not know exactly what is happening as the person going through it experiencing some speculations have been made.

    The white tunnel of light has been thought to be random firings of the optic interpretation of what the brain thinks it sees as it is shutting down. Shutting down from lack of oxygen to suppy the cells with the life giving sustenance it requires.

    Another fact that leaves open the speculation of "soul" is that after the body does die that weight of the body becomes less. Scientific fact. For no reason, that we can account for, the body loses weight at death.
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  7. Merlijn curious cat Registered Senior Member

    I have heard about the idea that the decrease in body mass at the moment of death relates to the "soul" leaving the body.
    I think that is just the strangest thing: it would mean that the "soul" is material! Huh, I thought you just said the soul is some astral body-thing.

    It all resembles too much a desperate attempt to get some scientific terminology into the further completely "intuitive" (not my intuitions!

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    ) talk by theosophics, antroposophics, new-agers, and other mysticists. Just like (among others) Deepak Chopra does: he keeps on talking about Einsteinian relativity, quantum states and the like when it is totally inappropriate.

    Don't get me wrong: I am a "believer", but NOT a mysticist!


    P.S. I believe the amount of weight loss is so small it falls comfortly in the error-range of the instruments used. (what was it half a gram on a body mass of 70-80 kg??)
  8. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

    After 'Death'.....

    After leaving your earth-bound body, your Deeper Self, or your soul if you prefer that, leaves the body and takes of to go home. Home is where your Deeper Self comes from, it's called Bardo by Tibetans, and from there you can be born again......This is no religion, no believe in heaven and hell, no believe in the jezus-god figure, it is just the way the cosmos 'lives'. Sorry, it is not very clear this way, and this is told in a very simple way because my english isn't good enough. I am busy to try and translate this item, so later today I will try to write it all down in a good, understandable way. Untill then I have this text, maybe it say's maybe more, then I can...

    We can walk our road together
    If our goals are all the same
    We can run alone and free
    If we persue a different aim

    Let the truth of Love be lighted
    Let the love of Truth shine clear
    Armed with sense and liberty
    With the Heart and Mind united
    In a single perfect sphere..... < The Sphere - Rush >
  9. Bebelina Feminazi Messiah Valued Senior Member

    Ahhh, beautiful!!!!

    Now, you said it all right, Banshee, so I don´t have to tell them....

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  10. machaon Registered Senior Member

    Sky burial

    I hope this is not too far off topic. I decided to post this message simply because of the mention of Tibetan beliefs in the previous thread. The Tibetans would often reduce a corpse to bite-size bits and feed them to the wild eagles and hawks of the Tibetan mountains. They would set the "prepared corpse" in a field an watch as the remnants of the deceased were carried to the sky. My sources on this subject are a little shaky, but they certainly seem plausible enough to warrant mention here. If anyone finds this even remotely interesting, then I have fulfilled my mission.
  11. Chagur .Seeker. Registered Senior Member

    Just a thought ...

    I find it difficult to equate the 'white tunnel of light' to a NDE when it wasn't that long ago, subjectively, that some were doing large doses of LSD to attain the 'bright, white light' that supposedly was the epitome of the LSD experience.
  12. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

    LSD trips never bring you really to the same light as is meant by Near Death Experiences.
    Even Out Of Body experiences don't bring you to the tunnel of light, people with Near Death Experiences do see.
    It is a very different experience.
    It brings you to the same 'Sphere' as people with Near Death Experiences, but never to that tunnel of light.
    Because, I guess, you only can see that tunnel, if you lay of your Earth-bound body for this life-time and go over to the 'Sphere' we all come from.
    LSD can sometimes help make you see 'things' clearer, give you more insight into your own life and the why of it.

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    Sorry for the difficult talking, it is the best I can do in english, sorry for that.

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    Talk to you later.
  13. piffi Nixed Price Rack Registered Senior Member

    of course LSD cannot perfectly replicate the white tunnel of light you see whan being born--it is a drug!! It brings things up in an altered state, no matter how clear it may seem, it is tainted. When you see the 'tunnel of light' in a near death experience, you are seeing the memory-yes the actual memory- of your birth. Nothing could be more simple because we all see the white tunnel when we are born. It is simply the light coming from the outside world. Oh, you say?? what if someone was born in the dark? well not many people are born in the dark these days that would be able to report the white light to a scientific source if they have a near-death experience? besides which, not many people have near death experiences anyway. But just maybe any light seems infinitely bright to a baby who has never seen it.

    Maybe yes, we are all affected by our births. Maybe our individuality comes from genes and memories, not genes and soul? No matter what, we'll all be uniqye and beautiful human beings anyway, allways, and forever. So why should the circumstances be so touchy. If you disagree with me, You probably believe the same thing as me, but don't know it yet-or maybe never.

    So much for being friendly and non-confrontational...I need to work on my people skills. (as do we all)
  14. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

    No, I do not agree.
    It is known that some people with near death experiences see a dark tunnel sometimes...
    When they wake up and remember they start to shiver and only want to forget.
    Typical is, that this was most happened with people who did not so great in life, hate ful people.
    When your heart is ful of hate and you pass over to the next dimension, you will find what you have done, one way or the other.
    But that dark tunnel doesn't mean hell, in the biblical sin, it is a warning.
    Don't pass over with hate in your heart and don't pass over by killing yourself.
    For suicide is taking your own life, meaning you are not capable of living this life which is given to you.
    Everybody here on Earth has problems to deal with, very hard times are normal in human life.
    But you never get more then you can handle. You can handle everything that comes on your way, because you learn from that hard times, you grow, inside.
    So if you take your own life, you get the same problems again in your next life...

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    And what the drugs are concerned.
    You only should know how much from that damn LSD is given to people with other abilities to try to make them do the same under the influence from LSD or another hallucinating drug.
    Just to test if people can go out of their body under the influence of that drugs, and Psychokinesis and Telepathy and even Lucid Dreaming.
    For all that dumb experiments the scientists use hallucinating drugs because they think people can find their way to their ability in a lab, more easy then.
    It is totally wrong to treat humans like that.
    And that has nothing to do with hallucinating drugs.
    I took them, I have no braindamage, no more then before I guess.
    But then again, who knows am I a lot more crazy then before...

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  15. machaon Registered Senior Member

    The persistance of death.

    GENEVA, SWITZERLAND:World Health Organization officials expressed disappointment Monday at the group's finding that, despite the enormous efforts of doctors, rescue workers and other medical professionals worldwide, the global death rate remains constant at 100 percent.

    Death, a metabolic affliction causing total shutdown of all life functions, has long been considered humanity's number one health concern. Responsible for 100 percent of all recorded fatalities worldwide, the condition has no cure.

    "I was really hoping, what with all those new radiology treatments, rescue helicopters, aerobics TV shows and what have you, that we might at least make a dent in it this year," WHO Director General Dr. Gernst Bladt said. "Unfortunately, it would appear that the death rate remains constant and total, as it has inviolably since the dawn of time."

    Many are suggesting that the high mortality rate represents a massive failure on the part of the planet's health care workers.

    "The inability of doctors and scientists to adequately address this issue of death is nothing less than a scandal," concerned parent Marcia Gretto said. "Do you have any idea what a full-blown case of death looks like? Well, I do, and believe me, it's not pretty. In prolonged cases, total decomposition of the corpse is the result."

    "What about the children?" the visibly moved Gretto added.

    "At this early date, I don't want to start making broad generalizations," Citizens for Safety's Robert Hemmlin said, "but it is beginning to seem possible that birth—as well as the subsequent life cycle that follows it—may be a serious safety risk for all those involved."

    Death, experts say, affects not only the dead, but the non-dead as well.

    Death has long been considered humanity's number one health concern. Responsible for 100 percent of all recorded fatalities worldwide, the condition has no cure.
    "Those who suffer from death can be highly traumatized by it, often so severely that it kills them," noted therapist Eli Wasserbaum said. "But it can also be very traumatic for the still-living who are left behind. The sudden cessation of metabolic activity characteristic of terminal cases of death often leaves the dead person in a position where they are unable to adequately provide for the emotional needs of their loved ones."

    In the most serious cases of death, Wasserbaum explained, the trauma inflicted upon these still-living victims of death may continue throughout their entire lives, until their own deaths. "Thus," Wasserbaum said, "the 'vicious cycle' of death trauma continues indefinitely."

    "Everybody talks about death," Sen. Pete Domenici (R-NM) said, "but nobody seems to actually be doing anything about it. I propose we stop molly-coddling death, not to mention the multi-billion-dollar hospital, mortuary, funeral and burial industries that reap huge profits from it."

    Under Domenici's new bill, all federal funds will be withheld from the medical industry until it "gets serious and starts cracking down on death."

    Consumer rights advocate and staunch anti-death activist Ralph Nader agreed with Domenici.

    "Why should we continue to spend billions of dollars a year on a health care industry whose sole purpose is to prevent death, only to find, once again, that death awaits us all?" Nader said in an impassioned address to several suburban Californians. "That's called a zero percent return on our investment, and that's not fair. Its time the paying customer stood up to the HMOs and to the so-called 'medical health professionals' and said: 'Enough is enough. I'm paying through the nose here, and I don't want to die.'"
  16. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

    Death is the one 'thing' in life, you are sure of.
    Everybody dies.
    That is a simple fact.
    Everybody has to lay off the Earth-bound body, when your life here is done and your body is old, or dies at something, an illness or so.
    Then you go out of that Earth-bound body and your Deeper Self, which always stays with you, will go to our home front.

    That is why you can never 'cure' death...
    Your Deeper Self goes away from the dying body and disappears from it.
    No doctor can tell such Deeper Self to come back and go into the dying body again, if the body really is dying.
    Sometimes, with near-death-experiences, your Deeper Self will come back, because there is a reason, you have to live on...
    And maybe your Earth-bound body, is not ready to die yet.
    That is when the Deeper Self decides to go back into the Earth-bound body.
    No doctor who brings such people back, if your Deeper Self will not return to the body.
    To much vital organs can be damaged, so sometimes the doctors can bring the heart back to live, that helps, of course, haha.
    Then, with luck, your Deeper Self returns.
    To much damage, no return, the next Dimension.
  17. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member


    that is amazing, I had no idea..

  18. Congrats Bartok Fiend Registered Senior Member

    Hey Banshee, what is the neccessity for death? It seems like from what you said that death is an earthbound event that the deeper soul follows. So if you 'come back' to life after being pronounced dead, wouldn't the idea that you had unfinished business really just be the idea that you didn't die? What I mean is, while you're on Earth, physiological reasons for death take precedent over 'deeper' spiritual reasons. If a doctor brings someone back, they get the body working again, so then your soul could return. Is it a coincidence all the time that when a doctor physically revives someone they also have unfinished business? Or does the unfinished business preclude the revival, or vive versa?
  19. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    Quite Simply, Death is an Absolute!

    (although myself and some of the others, including Kmguru would probably like to construct a way to map the mind and move it to a computerised system on death.. Of course would it truly be you? or just a copy? That's a set of good questions in itself.
  20. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

    If you had paid attention, then you could have read that I wrote in the above post, that sometimes doctors can bring people's Deeper Self back, because their life here is not done yet and the body is not so damaged it can't heal in any way.
    So, now I could write the whole thing all over again. If you really want to know, then pay attention, and don't ask me to write it down twice please.
    Thank you.

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    If you lay off your Earth-bound body, because your life here on Earth has ended, your Deeper Self goes out of that body and leaves for the next dimension, the homefront of our Deeper Self.
    It is not to me, to tell you how the reincarnation works exactly.
    You learn in every life time. You always take your Deeper Self with you, in every life time. You just forget about former lifes, if not, your head would flow over from all those lifes, or that little lifes. Some people don't return as much as others.
    But some of it always stays in your memory and in the next life time you are able to learn more and use what you learned in former lifes automatical. It has all to do with the Cosmos and life on Earth.
    To much to write down now.
    I wrote about it in former posts and other threads.
    If you want to know, look them up and read.
    If not, let it be.

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  21. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

    Are souls

    made up of frequencies?

    Energy resonating at a prescribed (but variable) rate, probably existing in part of every cell in the body and kept in place by the bodys own magnetic force. This energy transmits and receives information throughout a lifetime, according to how well it's 'tuned in' to some Universal wave band.

    This information is xmitted to and from other places in the Universe via the magnetic waveband and is an inherent part of its evolution. The body is like a Universal nerve ending.

    On death and cessation of the bodys own magnetism, the vibrating energy is pulled out of the body and is immediately attracted to another body at the moment of its conception, I don't think it can survive for long on this plane without a body.

    Each life form contains energy which vibrates at a predefined and unique frequency in its own waveband, therefore I don't think that 'souls' can transmigrate into alternative life forms, except when mutation creates an alternative, which is already very close to the original. So in small incremental steps it does, but I don't think a man can die and come back as a dog for example.

    I think a near-death experience is when the bodys magnetism is weakened through trauma and the soul begins to drift outwards, into the strong and information packed universal magnetic wave. On its return it has been enriched or been made more sensitive by its cosmic encounter and this may explain why people who have experienced nde usually undergo a 'spiritual' change, redifine their values and seem happier and more content.

    I think bodys can be hosts to multiple frequencies, which belong to groups. Something like musical notes in chords, so some groups can be like an Fmajor some a Cminor, some a D minor augmented7th etc. So a bodys 'soul' is like a musical chord. It attracts the 'notes', which are relevant to it and comprises of many. At the moment of conception, a combination of notes are passed genetically and these define the chord of the new life. These notes can be 'played' in a variety of ways and can define a persons character or 'the person inside'. This may explain the similarities found in different 'types' of people (you know, like I may be a Dminor and you could be a Bflat). Personality, health and intelligence is probably genetic, but the way the chord is played, is what makes each one of us stand out from the rest. This is why some people seem so dead and stifled and others are so full of their own potential. It's a matter of learning to play the notes.
  22. machaon Registered Senior Member


    Thank you for your excellent post. After reading it I thought you may enjoy the book THE HOLOGRAPHIC UNIVERSE by Michael Talbot(the name may be misspelled). If you have time and an oppurtunity to read it, I suggest you do. I do not concur with every aspect of the books statements, but it seeded some good ideas that I now base my world-view on.
  23. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

    But your Deeper Self, or Soul, whatever, goes to another Dimension first.
    Never does a Deeper Self go right into another, new born baby.
    To quick...
    Even on our home front there are some kind of 'strange' and unknown rules, we not know exactly.
    A person is materialized energy. After laying off your Earth-bound body, this Deeper Self goes to the home front.
    This is a very, very little of the Tibetan Death Book.
    I don't know if I translated that ok, but it is to read in this.
    And the rest is learnt, by life itself...

    So many people, so many different meanings...
    This is how it belongs to be...
    Talk to you later.

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