Death to Apostates (?)

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by James R, Aug 2, 2008.

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Death to apostates?

  1. I am Christian or Jewish. Apostates should be killed.

    1 vote(s)
    2.6%
  2. I am Christian or Jewish. Apostates should not be killed.

    7 vote(s)
    18.4%
  3. I am Muslim. Apostates should be killed.

    2 vote(s)
    5.3%
  4. I am Muslim. Apostates should not be killed.

    1 vote(s)
    2.6%
  5. I am a member of some other religion. Apostates from my religion should be killed.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. I am a member of some other religion. Apostates should not be killed.

    5 vote(s)
    13.2%
  7. I am non-religious. People who become religious should be killed.

    2 vote(s)
    5.3%
  8. I am non-religious. People who become religious should not be killed.

    18 vote(s)
    47.4%
  9. No opinion / don't want to vote / other (explained below)

    2 vote(s)
    5.3%
  1. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,782
    You persist because of pride and rebellion to vainly persure your faulty argument and the more you do the more you reveal yourself.

    The Evalyonian even quoted a clearer scripture to you but you choose to ignore it in persit of your agenda.


    Matthew 28

    18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

    All the nations is exactly that. All the nations not just the Jewish nation.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
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  3. Myles Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,553
    Stop quoting the fucking Bible ! Have you nothing to say for yourself. If you must preach, get yourself a soapbox and do it elswhere !
     
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  5. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,865
    Sure, Jewish disciples of all nations. I see no contradiction there.
    Would a Jew living in Rome or Persia be denied, simply because they didnt live in Judea?

    How long will you deny his direct words...."Go NOT among the gentiles."
     
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  7. Myles Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,553
    As it says in the good book:

    If ye harken not to Adstar , my anointed, the Lake of Fire awits ye.

    Idiotics: 1.14
     
  8. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,968
    Either back up your claim, or don't make one in the first place.

    jan.
     
  9. phlogistician Banned Banned

    Messages:
    10,342
    He killed for non-stamp collecting reasons too. Grow up.
     
  10. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,432
    You mean...
    Stalin wasn't a stamp collector???
    GASP!

    That must be it! He wanted to rid the world of stamp collectors!
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2008
  11. phlogistician Banned Banned

    Messages:
    10,342

    It's Sam making the claim that Stalin's atheism was the cause of him killing people.

    Myles is pointing out that there is no cause and effect going on there. Stalin being an atheist was tangential to the fact he was an asshole.

    If you are in doubt, go read about Stalin and the purges. Don't be lazy and ask Myles to put it under your nose for you.
     
  12. The Evelyonian Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    93
    Except the greek term used in Matthew 28 is "ethnos" which does not mean nation in the sense of countries but nation in the sense of race. The usage is too broad to refer only to the Jewish people.

    I'm going to start a new thread on this subject because this discussion has nothing to do with the OT.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2008
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    It can be argued that there is plenty of evidence of wanting to wipe out religion in the Soviet regime. The religious were just collateral damages. The creation of the Society of the Godless or the League of the Militant Godless for instance, was almost entirely a party effort, supported by party funding, with many members having no idea what they had signed up for. It collapsed when party funds were withdrawn, showing that the ideology of bringing people into a scientific mindset as they said, was driven entirely by the communist party regime.. Moreover, it was supported by Freethinkers [as atheists defined themselves at the time] all over the world.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_the_Godless


    If political expediency is the excuse, then lets look at why some Muslims believe in the death sentence for apostacy, given that its not defined in the religion.

    Classical Hanafi doctrine holds that the capital punishment of the apostate serves mainly political aims. I quote two famous Hanafi jurists from Central Asia on this matter. The first is the eleventh-century Transoxanian jurist Sarakhsi, one of the major authorities of the Hanafi school. He says:

    The change of religion and the original form of unbelief
    belong to the most abominable of crimes. But [their judgment]
    is a matter between God and his servant and the punishment
    [of this crime] is postponed until the hereafter.
    The measures advanced in this base world [and which thus
    precede God's judgment] are matters of political expediency
    [siyasat mashru'a] ordained by the law in order to protect
    human interests" (Sarakhsi, n.d., vol. 10: 110).


    In the same vein, the twelfth-century Hanafi jurist Marghinani, whose book al-Hidaya exerted a lasting influence on the Hanafi jurists of the Near East, states his position with the following words:

    In principle, punishments are postponed to the hereafter
    and the fact that they are advanced [so that they precede
    the hereafter] violates the sense of probation [as the sense
    of human life in this world]. One deviates from this principle
    in order to defy a present evil and that is warfare
    [against the Muslims] ('Ayni, vol. VI: 702-703). (2)


    Both authors argue that the apostate's punishment is not due to his belief but to the military and political danger that this belief may cause. They use this argument to show that women, even if they abandon Islam, should never be condemned to death because they are, according to Hanafi doctrine, physically not able to lead war on the Muslim community. The jurists conclude from this that capital punishment is not imposed for disbelief and apostasy but as a means to prevent the military and political dangers connected with it.

    One could argue then, that Stalins aims were not different from those of the Hanafi jurists in this regard. In fact, come to think of it, Stalin is the kind of apostate that they referred to.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2008
  14. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    That fills me with exactly zero confidence in islamic jurisprudence.
     
  15. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,968
    phlogistician,

    I think that is your interpretation of what she said.

    Okay, I accept that that is whay Myles said.
    My question is, how does he know?

    What I have read about Stalin is irrelivant to the question I pose to Myles, or anyone who is as certain as he.

    Why are you so certain that Stalins actions are NOT linked to his atheism?
    It is a fair question phlogo.
    Please try and attemp an answer without resorting to pretend humour, such as stamp collecting, and blokes named basil.
    Otherwise you will be seen as, dare I say it, irrational.

    I look foreward to a serious answer. Thanks.
    Jan.
     
  16. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    Because he didn't kill them on the basis of religion. He didn't credit it to his lack of faith.
     
  17. phlogistician Banned Banned

    Messages:
    10,342
    Sam brings it up too often for me to be unsure.


    The point is to show how vitriolic, and irrational Sam is.

    Above, I was being serious. Sam has a chip on her shoulder, and it makes her look rabid. She is the poster girl for why religions take normal people, and turn them into assholes.
     
  18. Myles Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,553
    And the next question is: " How do you know ? " I wish you luck because you are in the process of being caught up in a conspiracy theory.

    The fact that he did not credit his killing spree to his lackof faith proves nothing. How do you know that he did not conceal his motives ? Isn't the fact that he gave no reasons for his killing spree PROOF POSITIVE that he killed people because of their religion ?

    Did you know that he ate babies. That is also not recorded, for obvious reasons.
     
  19. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,968
    But he did seek to end religion, at least by closing down churches, mosques, and improsonment of clergy.
    What would motivate him to do that, if not because he was an atheist?

    jan.
     
  20. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,968
    Why are you here Myles, it seems you have an aversion to discussion. That's not very healthy in a discussion forum.

    Jan.
     
  21. phlogistician Banned Banned

    Messages:
    10,342

    Because religious leaders organise people into groups, and the groups follow the leader. People are easier to manage if they only have one leader.

    Stalin also disposed of opposing politicians. He certainly wasn't apolitical!
     
  22. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,968
    Phlogo, I think you are taking things too personally.
    It's almost as if you think, Stalins' actions somehow reflect on you and anybody who calls themself atheist, so you feel compelled to defend yourself and your worldveiw.
    My understanding doesn't lend itself to that kind of simplistic, point-scoring philosophy. And I would be very surprised if Sam's did, based on here posts.
    If your evil, then your worldview will aid you in your decisions be they atheistic or theistic, but atheism, or theism, in and of themselves, cannot be regarded as good or evil. This is my opinion. I hope you understand.

    jan.
     
  23. phlogistician Banned Banned

    Messages:
    10,342
    That is exactly what Sam is trying to imply. That Stalin was an evil atheist, and therefore all atheists are somehow responsible in part. That is why we make the 'stamp collector' references. Sam want to group people by what they are not (theists), us atheists want to point out other common non-affiliations. You might think it lighthearted, but there is a serious side; Sam is trying to make atheism a pro-position with a political agenda. This is dishonest.


    WHAT? Sam is a liar, dishonest in debate, and machinistic. How could you not have noticed this from her posts?
     

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