Darwin Evolution VS Genesis Evolution

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by IamJoseph, Jul 26, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    30,376
    IamJoseph:

    I'll wait until you respond to the rest of my post before replying. You've only responded to about one third of it so far.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. IamJoseph Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,289
    We cannot search every nook and corner of the universe - but what have you against a first hand poll survey in the known universe - it is the most scientific way possible? We have performed planetary visits, zoomed into billions of miles, peeked into far away galaxies and sent probes: ToE has made no imprints here despite an array of varied invironments at its beck and call. The poll proves that the unknown universe is more like the known than not so. I don't see our mastering of the universe as a low call but an inevitable one. The math says there is no life out there - and I refer to good math.

    Before you use such absolute language, try to focus differently than the usual. Dna does not change anymore than an apple ripens. The change you refer to is factored in the program - else we would not exist beyond the first weather change. With all the majestic engineering in the human body, you are saying it forgot to include any pliability - not even a car maker would build that way. Again, the DNA adapts and allows changes in millions of modes, accumulates this knowledge and passes it on - sort of like an immune system whereby the cells develop new changes - but nothing to do with your invironment. There is a saying: THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED IN WISDOM.


    Established? - you mean like the UN Resolutions? My science is fine - check if your sweating.




    I could not even find 'SKUDS' in the Hebrew bible.

    I suspect you are not debating honestly here, as with the blood issue. I said, a seed is an issue of essence from the host, and also gave examples this can be used in manifold ways, including lineage. The term spermatozoa is recent and bears no negative impact here. Now this word spermatozoa is also not seen in the works of Galelio, Newton or Einstein - so what? Tomorrow we may call it squigazoa!


    Think of 'essence' if an issue output does not satisfy. Now I see why you have a comprehension problem - or worse.

    These factors were introduced in the Hebrew bible. The first recording of malignancy, its id and treatment, along with quarantine, infectious and contagious deseases - are copiously listed in relation to leprosy. Here, medicine, a science faculty, was for the first time seperated from occultism. You surprise me!




    I stretched my neck. No nature. You must now nominate what causes things without using the term NATURE - this is a bogey man akin to Zeus.

    From a scientific vew, a complex process cannot occur wthout a director. This does not mean we have to prove a director or not - the sound premise prevails. No such thing as effect w/o a cause. Ask yourself what caused a finite universe - which was once not existing. Please don't say the invironment!

    Obviously, I was only stressing the point. Nature is a term used to avoid saying WE DON'T KNOW WHO DONE IT - nothing more. The leap to saying NO ONE DID IT is the most unscientific premise imaginable.

    Well, at one time nothing contained in this universe existed. Not even nature. How now - where do we go from here? What you call nature can be described as follows from Genesis:

    1. FORMLESS WAS CHANGED TO FORM. The introduction of laws you like to call natural laws is what Genesis says, namely first the premise of a law must be introduced - then come the laws. E.g. Can you have wisdom unless the premise of wisdom per se occurs - and do you see how this gets very hedy when a big picture is incorporated? Life cannot exist before the premise of life is first introduced. Life, wisdom and laws never exsted at one time - nothing contained in the universe existed at one time. Can you add 2+ 2 unless the premise of 2 is frst existent?

    2. Critical seperation forces of the earth's elements occured before life emerged, according to Genesis. These are forces which will sustain life - and what you call 'nature'. These are critical forces because they interact with forthcoming life and vice versa. They are produced especially for life on this planet, forming an invironment which can support life. Imagine if the invironment was too hot like in Mercury: a ToE'ist will say that's why life does not exist in Merculy - instead of saying life exists on this planet because of those critical actions nominated in genesis. Do you see the difference here?



    I see evolution as an effect of a directive program. Like growth when we eat. I don't see food as the causation factor for life.


    My science says a finite universe must have a universe maker. I don't use words such as deities, whch appears your own issue with religions - this became obsolete with Monotheism - the greatest scientific equation of all. We cannot describe a supreme being/entity which transcends and predates the universe - but we darn well cannot say there is no one and nothing behind the universe - that is not science nor evolution. You easily subscribe to jitterbugging quarks and strong easterly winds as your creator without any qualms - but go balistic at the thought of a Creator as envisioned by Abraham - how did that happen?



    Certainly we see flowers comitting cross pollination - but this is not nature - it is a directive program which allows this facility. We see different life forms behaving differently - and it cannot be allocated to nature or the invironment. We can identify dfferent dna structures - we see a human has a thumb and a chimp does not, and when we learn to read the dna imprints better, we will find the reason for these variations in life forms - inside the life and not in the rainbows. This is how I see it, at least in that there is no credence in ToE's nature and invironment deities.

    Program directive: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.'

    Action result: "And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind"

    The above is superlative science, not religious myth. Darwin saw this in action, was able to observe some links in the process, then shouted Eureka! No Creator! No car maker! Darwin never stopped to ask, what makes grass grow as grass, herb as herb - nor whether this has anything to do with the seed. This clear embarrassment caused neo ToE'ists to proclaim its the invironment that done it - because they cannot align with 'seed' - a forbidden religious jargon, right? This is all that happened!


    I don't want to trouble you - or embarrass you. My math is excellent. If evolution is an on-going process, even if it moves at a pace of a nano-cm per 10,000,000 years [the usual bogus answer] - we would still be able to see and witness its evolutionary changes. Because every second of that period will have an adjacent one beside it in an on-going basis. The time factor has no impact on an on-going process. This, and the speech factr, is an insurmountable achiles heel for ToE - even the staunchest supporters of ToE have admitted this.

    Absolutely. And I will be totally honest with you also, without any manipulation.

    Fine, I will factor this in. My response applies also to any changes of any kind - they will at all times be observable with no effect of the time factor.


    I referred to alphabetical books. You win if you can produce one older than the Hebrew. Note that the book of the dead is not a book [continueing, multi-page narrative], and it is also not alphabetical or historical.

    I will check this link and show you its errors.

    Species is a recent term. Its original source word is KINDS [introduced in Genesis], which refers to life form groupings and sub-groupings with its groups, and can be allocated by various criteria. While genesis nominates the most fundamental and foremost criteria observable by all generations - by terrain, ToE does this via skeletal and gene imprints.

    That's an extention of a law [safety parapets; no hole in the ground; owner is liable if his house is not safe; etc], which occurs with passing generations. There are millions of such safety laws. We need not become desperate and render the issue of laws as a mockery and trivia. One day such signs will appear on Mars - beware of martians.

    No laws cometh from the Gospels. And no Hebrew laws were successfully fulfilled away. Believe it!

    Not a oner. A law is not what a christian or muslim follows - it must be seen to be enshrined in institutions and the judiciaries which are not christian or muslim. Laws do not require names - they stand pristine on their own if they have merit. Its like science and history.



    A dual gendered human called Adam, circa 6000 years ago - the first recording of a name, and the reason we have no predating name. Amazing, no!

    Genesis says the first of any life frm was dual gendered. No alternatives here.

    Its not the invironment, but the stuff inside the apple which allows it to turn red. The invironment does not change green things to red things. Genesis is correct - a female and/or a male can only emerge if the host is a combo of both - as in the egg which has combined with the male sperm. But the first original was a duality: there was no other to combine with! The offspring inherits the duality trait and can reproduce either of those genders.




    It possessed both genders. Then it seperated. How else?

    The translated word for rib does not mean rib, and there was no apple in the garden.


    Why bizarre - the text actually says so! No need to question the reader who happens to agree with the logic.


    Correct - each follows its own kind, as per the data inherited in the seed. [Genesis].

    Comprehension issue here. The term 'each' agrees there are sub-groups within each group. [Genesis].


    .

    Ok, but you missed the point I was making.


    You failed to answer the second question. I assume it's because Genesis doesn't tell you the answer.

    I answered all your questions adequately. I understand some species became extinct - all things are time limited. An infinite cannot subsist in a finite realm.

    Conclusion:

    CREATION VS EVOLUTION is incorrect.

    Better:

    CREATION; EVOLUTION.

    I mean, how can you evolutionise what is not existing yet!
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. IamJoseph Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,289
    Q: Is it correct that C14 dating cannot apply to inanimate things [like stone], only life? And that C14 is inaccurate for periods over 50K years? Does anyone know?
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. IamJoseph Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,289
    Wiki is notorious and facing numerous court challenges for its cow towing to Muslim preferences. Wiki calls Judea 30 CE as Palestine - an impossibilty when this name was applied to this land 40 years later by the Romans: when asked why, Wiki's answer is it is more conducive to popular reference! So much for an encyclopedia.

    This article is wrong on two factors:

    It admits this is not alphabetical and disputed, which is evidenced by the lack of alphabets from Egypt, but no such lacking with the Hebrew.

    While it gets its dating correct aproximately [bronze age] - it fails again with its Canaanite allocation. The Canaanites never spoke Hebrew nor did they possess alphabetical writings, and no semetic language aside from Hebrew possessed the V letter, not even sumer or phonecia. We have an ancient writings in advanced alphabetical book form [The Hebrew bible], which text declares that the Israelites entered Canaan with the five books of the Torah already in hand. We know for a fact that Monotheism was not a Canaanite practice - nor do we have a single Canaanite alphabetical book. We have 55 alphabetical Hebrew books, written some 50 years apart, listing ancient history and millions of stats - why should anyone see Wiki as more credible!? :shrug:
     
  8. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    One. We have performed ONE planetary visit. To a world we already knew probably didn't have anything.

    We've fired a few probes to other, equally life-crappy planets in the solar system, and scanned them from a few thousand miles out. I don't think that qualifies as much of a "scan for life forms", unless you were expecting those life forms to start shooting at the probes or something.

    "Invironments"? Who the what now?

    Actually, the math suggests that there is. In a massive, massive universe, the probabilities against it will eventually be "ratioed-out" to a high positive integer.

    DNA mutates, undergoes selection and drift, heterochrony, variable activation via RNA pre- and post-translation and methylation.

    Are you implying complete plasticity? Is environmental stress, resulting in cancer, factored into the program?

    Simple: early self-replicating molecular systems.
     
  9. IamJoseph Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,289
    One is still greater than none, allowing no excuse to make an antithetical assumption based on viable math. However, I don't agree we made only small investigations. We know our solar system and many galaxies, including delving into the first minutes of the start-up BB. Nor can we disregard mandatory advanced life based on the time factor or conclude that all space bodies are too far relatively. There is no sign of life or imprints for some 15 Billion years anywhere we look, and none on earth for some 5 billion years. We 'MUST' conclude based on current info that there is no life, as opposed allowing a posibility of life.

    Here, the relevant question is, does ToE still stand if life is only existant on earth? Usually, this question beguiles and the 'POSSIBILITY' factor is clung to - which is poor, mythical math. Of note is that Genesis, which cannot be disregarded here - being the first document which delves into this subject, particularly highlights the earth for life - which infers it is saying no life outside earth - else this becomes superfluous. From a literary pov, the Hebrew bible is grammatically and mathematically perfect and unequalled by any other writing humanity possesses, allowing for no superfluos or contradicting statements.

    An example: consider that the first day is not termed first but 'DAY ONE' - while the following days are termed SECOND, THIRD, FORTH, etc. This is because 'FIRST' represents one of many others, which does not align with an actual first. Thus DAY ONE for the absolute first day. The day [and week] was introduced in Genesis, in its most appropriate location - because we cannot measure anything unless we can effectively measure time.

    It does qualify, to the extent we will always be in this position even after 100,000 years. The uni is too big to make viable indents, and clinging to a circular path is the wrong one. A tiny sample in the form of a direct and first hand survey is the best we can ever achieve. I find that suddenly, scientists become non-scientists when this form of arguement is raised - it denotes a wilfull agenda of intentional negation at the cost of science itself.


    Incorrect. The math does not allow a ratio based on a vacuous premise. Its like saying millions of humans can be found under the ocean bed because of its size!

    Incorrect. There is no mutation or drift outside established parameters based on life repro on this planet - which aligns exclusively with Genesis: we have never seen drift outside the earth.

    Incurable deseases are factored in. We have colds, flu and cancers - and immune systems. This is a war where life forms are battling, same as what we see as manifest in a jungle. We also have natural death - which means life forms inevitably seccumb. Death and incurable deseases is factored in Genesis at the very onset of human life, in a scientific treatise accounting to many pages: medicine as a faculty of science was first introduced here.

    There can be no self replication unless this facility is embedded in the chip. This factor is clearly included in Genesis, namely that one life form follows its own. This says it cannot in any wise be seen as self replication: try rejecting this where there is a dfferent scenario and no follow-up of the host is present?
     
  10. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    51,740
    That is just about the most unreasonable assumption I could think of. Current info is far from comprehensive.
     
  11. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    It's a completely untenable assumption. Utterly.
     
  12. IamJoseph Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,289
    Its a totally scientific and mathematical conclusion based on factual emperial criteria only. 'far from comprehensive' has no meaning here other than applying to its antithetical premise - one which assumes we cannot make any premise untill every nook and corner of the universe is examined. This is not how any science factors work. A first hand survey poll is unequalled in the criteria requirements for a conclusion.

    The possibility of life in a remote unseen part of the universe is equal to its antithesis only, namely there can equally be no life. But this premise is beaten when any indicative sampling is at hand - it says the known parts are more like the unknown than not so.

    ToE in almost every sector clings to slight of hand novel, fctional casino science when push comes to shove. Should the world's politicians, mathematicians and scientists cease referring to polls anymore!?
     
  13. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    One is the lonliest number.

     
  14. IamJoseph Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,289
    Its not an assumption. There are indicators relied upon. Its antithesis is the assumption.
     
  15. Mind Over Matter Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,205
    Instead of this broad topic of a "literal reading of Genesis", I encourage everyone to consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition for the actual doctrines being taught regarding Adam.. Once one finds the actual doctrines regarding the creation of Adam, then one will be able to understand why Jesus hung bleeding on a cross.

    Basic Catholic teaching regarding Adam, created in the Image of God
    is found in the
    Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4 Paragraphs 355-421.

    The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

    I cannot post the link because I just signed up. (I need at least 20 posts before I can post it) but if anyone is interested you can google:

    St Charles Borromeo Catholic Church Catechism of the Catholic Church

    (One can put the word paragraph and the number in the Catechism's search bar once you access the website)
     
  16. IamJoseph Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,289
    Woof! Catholics have not a clue of the Hebrew bible - they have 'NEVER' observed it at any time and found it 2000 years after it first emerged - their first act was to declare anything they could not accept as fulfilled away - then they made the Creator a cursory after thought - if that.

    Their only interest is manipulating everything to align it with the Gospels. Islam does the same, albeit using different names. But neigher of those scriptures can transcend, edit, add or subtract - this has been a manifest failed agenda.
     
  17. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    The "thesis" (if we take your phrasing) is at least as much assumption as the "antithesis" and suffers from no mathematical support.
     
  18. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,101
    IamJoseph (or Cheskiclone, which ever you prefer),
    Let's try taking a slightly different angle of argument. Lets say you have a grand computer network that is capable of housing an emulation/simulation of the entire universe, however it starts as completely devoid of any data.

    To build a universe will require a program to run, it will require stages of that program to be met before stages after it can follow on.

    Now during this programming phase, you could say "We will build it based upon the Religious Manual to how the universe is suppose to be". The problem with this method is the universe you build will be very different to the one we are in, in fact I'm pretty sure that you'd end up with a Blue Screen of Death stopping your universe from coming into existence because of the countless syntax errors caused by religion, it's propagation and belief in general.

    If the programming that was applied attempted to follow physics and applied Evolution to the model, you would find a working simulation. It didn't require a god, or belief, it would just require plain and simple logic that a consensus agreed upon. No sudden jumps through miracles or some divine entity making "secret sauce" omissions.
     
  19. Mind Over Matter Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,205
    Can you give an example of this? If I recall, Pope John Paul II was always very open to the discoveries of science and even encouraged them, believing that faith and science were mutually beneficial to each other.
     
  20. IamJoseph Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,289
    The antithesis of 'cause and effect' is not 'no cause but ever occuring effects'. A universe maker and a universe is a scientific premise; and monotheism is a mathematically correct premise. This is sutainable even with the confounding frustration none of them are provable. The sound premise wins.
     
  21. IamJoseph Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,289
    Maybe. But the premise of fullfilling away majestic laws which turn humanity is a failed experiment. Christianity and Islam have lost their battle with the Hebrew bible - only this is impossible to acknowledge. The first two of the 10 commandments are manifest scientific premises which have never been disproven or indicated as incorrect - it needs no embellishings. But when Jerusalem was destroyed - the world turned astray, thinking all roads lead to Rome. But Rome is dead.
     
  22. IamJoseph Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,289
    Thus far, I like your idea very much and think it intelligent.

    The term religion is new - and post Hebrew. Genesis does not harbour any religions, and speaks of a scene before religions appeared.

    Well, lets see. If one follows the Genesis texts, we will end up with a universe which is finite and that there is a universe maker, and that this source is indefinable and indescribable. Which part is different from the universe you inhabit?

    Evolution is introduced in Genesis - it is an after the fact process.


    Now that's a confident statement. How can any science apply when a finite realm had no back-up promoter? Genesis is not based on myth and magic nor religions - your premise is.
     
  23. IamJoseph Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,289
    We've become too overwhelmed by a clinical approach. We hardly relate with what it means by life emerging or a mango occuring the first time. It was not there and then it appeared - its an awesome occurence aside from the clinical details.

    Imagine that for the first time you would be shown a mango - after agreeing to pay $100,000 for its viewing of a few minutes only and also be allowed to smell it and touch it. I say, if you had the money and if a mango never existed - you would gladly pay up. So life is not just a result of some equations or jitterbugging quarks, but an unimaginably spectacular occurence - maybe even transcending the universe's emergence itself. Imagine if there were no stones in the universe - would you care to see one for the first time?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page