Crippled 'Superman' Reeve Blames Church and Bush

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by goofyfish, Sep 19, 2002.

  1. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    It is not so much that they are failing to solve the problem. Rather, they are actively opposing progress. The Feds fund medical research all the time, so what is so different about 'embryonic' stem cell research? What is so different about cloning? Many pray for relief from disease and injury. How do we know that this new research is not the answer to their prayers?

    Fundies and Catholic bishops say that using stem cells, embryonic or cloned, for research or therapy is wrong because it destroys human life. They are playing fast and loose with the language. Sure a zygote has the correct genetic composition to be human as opposed to some other animal. It also has chemical processes that make it “alive”. Nevertheless, it is not a person. People with spinal injuries, Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s, etc. are certainly people.

    Most so-called "pro-life" advocates are really only pro-birth. After that, they could not care less.

    Peace.

    _____________
    Youth is the first victim of war - the first fruit of peace.
    It takes 20 years or more of peace to make a man;
    it takes only 20 seconds of war to destroy him.
    • -- King Boudewijn I, King of Belgium (1934-1993)
     
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  3. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    Oh yes, I agree completely. The "enlightened" ones are dead-set against actual progress.
     
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  5. NenarTronian Teenaged Transhumanist Registered Senior Member

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    Agreement here too..its the religious fundamentals and ethic and moral obsessed types doing all this. They're the reason we don't have organs grown from the patients own cells, the curing of certain genetic diseases...other stuff that could come from stem cell research. They'd rather let PEOPLE die, than use stem cells that aren't really people? Doesnt make sense to me..

    And they say we have a separation between State and Religion. No, sometimes i really don't think we do.
     
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  7. John MacNeil Registered Senior Member

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    One thing I'd like to hear the government's answer to is, Why do they restrict stem cell research, yet allow the killing of millions of womb-dependent children each year?
     
  8. Thor "Pfft, Rebel scum!" Valued Senior Member

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    Religiopn shouldn't have a say over anything. It has too much power and can sway almost any desision with no basis as to why
     
  9. Giskard brainious maximus Registered Senior Member

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    Amazing how Christopher Reeeve didn't give a hoot about this until his accident. Seems to me he is a self centered egotist who wants only for himself.
     
  10. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    You're surprised that he cares more about nerve regeneration research now that he's paralyzed? I imagine I would probably suddenly become much more concerned about it myself if I had my spinal cord severed.

    Anyway, just because he's being self-serving doesn't mean that he isn't right.
     
  11. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    Very true on both points, Nasor.

    From what I have read about him, Christopher Reeve was politically active in high school, protesting the Vietnam War then went to Cornell and became involved in environmental issues as well. As an adult, he has championed First Amendment issues and funding for the arts, and is active in Amnesty International, Save the Children, The National Resources Defense Council, The Lindbergh Foundation and others. Now disabled, how could he not focus is on the quality of life issues for disabled people?
    He is using his celebrity standing and his disability to help other by forcing legislators to take notice.

    Peace.

    _____________
    Youth is the first victim of war - the first fruit of peace.
    It takes 20 years or more of peace to make a man;
    it takes only 20 seconds of war to destroy him.
    • -- King Boudewijn I, King of Belgium (1934-1993)
     
  12. Thor "Pfft, Rebel scum!" Valued Senior Member

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    7,326
    When well known people get an illness and press for research, doesn't it help the medical field?

    But it amazes me when actors/actress's/popstars get a disease, they put up loads of money to find the cure

    The main culprit I can think of is Micheal J Fox, but the world needs his comedy, so I'll let him off
     
  13. Giskard brainious maximus Registered Senior Member

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    198
    goofyfish:
    "Sure a zygote has the correct genetic composition to be human as opposed to some other animal. It also has chemical processes that make it “alive”.

    This is the real argument. When should we consider human life to start. Since every single human ever born was at one time a zygote with the correct genetic composition to be human doesn't it seem silly to say this is not a seperate being that is simply in an early stage of development? When does this growing bundle of cells become human? It seems to me to be correct to say as soon as it has all the genetic material so that it cannot be anything else but a human being, which of course is at conception. Unfortunately, this obviously simple answer does not serve those who profit from abortion or see a "righteousness" for helping sick or injured humans AT THE EXPENSE OF ANOTHER TOTALLY INDIVIDUAL LIFE! And that is my argument, it is not based on religion (I am an atheist), it is based on the injustice of those living who damn the unborn because the unborn cannot defend themselves.
     
  14. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    Well... I think I see a little tiny bit of religion squeeking through,
    otherwise you would not feel that the unborn were "damned".

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    Peace.
     
  15. Giskard brainious maximus Registered Senior Member

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    Just a figure of speech to mean "guilty of being bad or inferior"
    But you may have a point, I was brainwashed Catholic when I was younger and it has taken many, many years to clear out all that damage. Still, I am sure somewhere deep down in the grey matter there are lingering "sleeper cells" that have not been eradicated.

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  16. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

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    Whew! I took a chance with that last post. I am glad you are not as thin-skinned as many other recent arrivals. I applaud you!

    My concern is that those of the Christian faith still heavily influence our politics. Unfortunately, they wish to impose their beliefs and arbitrary morals on everyone else. Much of the reason for this is the religious doctrine propagandized throughout most people's lives. I tolerate all religions. However, I reject the notion that religion is the sole arbitrator of truth.

    Some, like yourself, believe that life begins when the egg and sperm fertilize. This would forbid any research at this level and should require a funeral service after any abortion out of respect to the loss of human life. Abortions would be murder. The other extreme is that life does not begin until the baby is born. However it is well documented that premature babies are humans. So. It's somewhere in the middle for the rest of us. For me, it begins when the fetus is capable of surviving, with or without medical aid, outside of the womb. I know this definition is not quite satisfactory because there are occasions when there is an overlap between the embryo's existence outside the womb and its existence inside the womb. I have never thought that it is any easy problem.

    Peace.

    __________________
    Youth is the first victim of war - the first fruit of peace.
    It takes 20 years or more of peace to make a man;
    it takes only 20 seconds of war to destroy him.
    • -- King Boudewijn I, King of Belgium (1934-1993)
     
  17. Walker Hard Work! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    770
    Amazing how Christopher Reeeve didn't give a hoot about this until his accident. Seems to me he is a self centered egotist who wants only for himself.

    I bet a lot of people would give a damn about things they had never thought about before, under the right circumstances. Like, for example, becoming a quadroplegic.
     
  18. Giskard brainious maximus Registered Senior Member

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    198
    walker:

    "I bet a lot of people would give a damn about things they had never thought about before, under the right circumstances. Like, for example, becoming a quadroplegic."

    Exactly my point, it's easy to stand for a cause that will benefit you, more noble are those that fight for other's causes. An interesting side to this story is that Richard Dreyfus ( I believe it was he, correct me if I am wrong) and Christopher Reeve made a pact in acting school that if one made it they would always help the other. He did honor that promise and has supported Reeve after the insurance ran out. Now THAT'S noble!!
     
  19. Clockwood You Forgot Poland Registered Senior Member

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    4,467
    The church tortured and killed multitudes of Jews in the Spanish Inquisition, prompted the Crusaders to invade the holy land and loot the place, and blackmailed Galleleo and they talk about it being unethical to experiment with cloneing?

    The american federal government is little better in the ethics department. We conquered the native peoples of North america, sporadically invade other countries and befriend countries that are even more evil than our enemies. Sigh.
     
  20. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    What’s your point? The relative moral virtue of the church or the United States government has nothing to do with stem-cell research; the issue stands on its own merits.
     
  21. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but women naturally have periods where unfertilised eggs are jetisoned from the body.

    Embryo's that could be used in research in certain respects are much like that of the unfertilised egg, They don't exist in a womb so would not naturally become any form of life.

    It's also assumed that the woman has given consent for eggs to be taken, which basically means they are not killing any form of fertilisation. So again no life form is killed.

    The whole perception of cloning is always argued with the thought of fully grown babies, which is not the case around stem cell research.

    As far as I'm concerned the Catholic Church is very wrong to stop progress in this field.
     
  22. Walker Hard Work! Registered Senior Member

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    770
    Giskard: I understand what you're saying, but the point that I'm trying to make is that self-interest in this case is justified. If the same thing happened to you, I would hope you would try to find a way to regain your health and independance (and would hope that you'd find it). I'd sure as hell try. Maybe he's not a philanthropist, but what he's doing isn't wrong. Besides, maybe it'll benefit others along the way.
     
  23. Clockwood You Forgot Poland Registered Senior Member

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    The problem with any religion is it by definition can not be proven or disproven completly. Oddly, most religions claim they are the only one that makes sense and their way is OBVIOUS.

    Sigh....

    I don't mind if they beilieve sofa-cushons are dieties but they should never push their ideas upon others.

    Sigh...
     

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