Creationist questions evolution

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Jan Ardena, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    That spelling of 'defence' looks awkward to me - even though it is ostensibly the correct spelling of my people.
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    One problem is that a lot of people would assume that with the term, "all known species that have ever existed on earth", one means 99.9% of all living individuals are dead and miss the implications in the terms "evolution of a species" and "extinction of a species".
     
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  5. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Extinction is the rule and evolution the minor exceptition.

    So many folk dont get it because they have no idea and they have no idea because their science comes from their holy book.

    Take the acceptance of the ark story...how did the animals survive when they got off the boat when all they had to eat was mud....nice story but then so is Snow White...except Snow White is believable.

    Faith the refuge of the ignorant and uniformed.
    Alex
     
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  7. river

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    Life gives intelligence to matter
     
  8. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    I posted remarks like the following to this or some similar Thread.

    There are two interesting sets of related fossils (among others) which strongly support evolution.

    Eohippus to modern horse

    Early primates to modern man.​

    The above could be called facts of evolution, requiring an alternative & better explanation to refute the current Darwinian explanation.

    Such an explanation could be called the creationist explanation of those facts.

    I do not remember anyone posting a plausible alternative to the explanation based on Darwinian evolution.
     
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  9. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    So although you don't know how life started, you have faith that it was a Darwinian process,
    Sounds about right,

    Who would do this?
    How would this person know that corruption is bad?

    What has been theorized thus far?

    jan.
     
  10. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    So what?
    It is still a requirement for the truth (for those who are interested in truth)

    Who is supposing it?
    Where did the information come from to build the first life form?
    Where does intelligible information generally come from. Period?

    How did/does complex specified information evolve out of natural processes?

    What was the first lifeform?

    What is the evidence for this?

    So speech is purely for reproductive advantages?
    Okay,

    Don't worry. I get it know.
    Speech gets you laid.

    What facts?

    So all our evolutionary benefits are purely there so we have a better chance of getting laid, and reproducing?
    That is if you see any benefit in anything we do.

    If we are aspect of nature, then we think and act in accordance with nature. That means every thought and action is true, according to nature. If we express an overall plan, ultimate goal, or God, it must necessarily be true according to nature.
    Why do you think it wouldn't?

    Of course it wouldn't.
    We are simply expressions of nature, so it has to be the truth according to nature. Doesn't it?
    If a cheetah kills an antelope, the cheetah has done nothing wrong. In fact it is correct to kill the antelope, because it is simply expressing it's natural instinct. Right?

    Not a ''real concern'', no.
    Whatever God does, it is Absolutely correct.
    Otherwise it wouldn't be God.

    Mindless DNA stores biological information. Where did that information come from?
    Where does information come from, generally?

    It tells you in the bible. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God?
    That seems to take care of where did the information come from.
    What is your hypothesis/ theory on where the information came from? It evolved?

    I do it all the time.
    Have you spoken to Alex?

    Evidence, for starters.
    You believe Darwinian evolution accounts for all the forms on the planet, and you have no evidence for it. Only just so stories and dodgy artwork.
    You cannot account for the vast amounts of information that would be needed to make these transformations.
    Prove me wrong.

    Trick?
    Can you hear yourself.

    I don't believe you.

    Am I an expression of nature?
    If yes, my knowledge of God is, as I say it is.

    From your perspective, how can it be anything else but a natural phenomenon?

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    See? Just so stories.

    jan
     
  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    A nice encapsulation quotation of what Jan thinks of historical studies.

    That the exact same description can be applied to scriptures seems to have totally escaped Jan.

    Jan has sown the seeds of his own downfall.

    'Just so' stories and dodgy artwork.

     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  12. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    What facts indeed.

    While Jan has just conceded that scripture and Bible are just stories and pictures, we can walk into any museum in the world and touch the effects of evolution. We can look at samples of hundreds and hundreds of creatures - all formed by the same evolutionary process, following the gradual changes from ancient precursor up to modern living descendant - and that includes humans.

    Thanks Jan, no one could have done a better job of
    - supporting modern scientific historical studies
    - while dropping a depth charge on scripture

    as effectively as you just did.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
    Xelasnave.1947 likes this.
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Physics and chemistry.

    Try the following. Boil some water and add a lot of sugar. Then let it cool. Crystals will form. Where did the information come from to build those crystals? Same place.
    Mutation and natural selection.
    From an evolutionary viewpoint, yes.
    From an evolutionary viewpoint, yes.
    Ah. Then since atheists exist, they must be the truth according to nature.
    Mutation and natural selection.
    Easy. Look at any genome of any organism. Compare it to its closest relatives. Boom! Creationism disproved, and evolution proved.
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    First, the Darwinian process started at the chemical level in cosmic clouds, many billions of years ago, long before the earth even existed.

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    Evidence of possibly the oldest forms of life on Earth have been found in hydrothermal vent precipitates

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earliest_known_life_forms

    We do know how life started, we just don't know the exact time in the evolution of bio-chemicals when life emerged from inanimate matter.

    This has nothing to do with faith. First there were chemicals, then there were polymers, then there were self-replicating polymers, then there were fully established populations of cyanobacteria, then there was oxygen, then life sprang into full bloom with variety, then there was motility. This process took some 1 billion years.
    And not even on land.

    This was an inevitable result of speciation and natural selection of "best adapted organic patterns". The process is demonstrable in a laboratory. The exact formula is a probability.
    Farmers engage in the intentional forced evolution of some species and select out the desired traits for breeding and start a "human selection" by culling the runts.

    Ever looked at a fancy goldfish? It's just a member of the carp family, but hopelessly altered to please our senses, but without any useful properties to survive in the wild.
    We keep em in glass bowls...

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    The only problem of finding the true point of origin is almost impossible to find and dependent on the probability of chelating the right combination of some 500 self-replicating bio-chemical polymers from a mixture of some 5000 chemicals.

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    Seen through a microscope, chlorophyll is concentrated within organisms in structures called chloroplasts.
    Chloroplast

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    What is there to believe? That God took a handful of mud and molded a man like a piece of clay?
    Now that takes belief! It also takes complete ignorance of biology!
     

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    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  15. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    How did life start?

    Jan.
     
  16. Gawdzilla Sama Valued Senior Member

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    Big Sky Daddy make heap big wind. Wind blow in man nose!
     
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  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Self-duplication by division. Growth into complex bio-chemical patterns.

    I just told you, but if want an expert analysis, watch the Robert Hazen presentation, which I have made available several times now. But I'll make it easy on you. Of course, you won't watch it, but hopefully some other people might be interested in the most likely process although there may be several different ways to form life. We just know pretty well how life on earth began.

    start the clip at 25:00
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    It emerged during compatible chemical interactions.
    Left- and right-handed molecules and surfaces naturally select for bonding of left-handed
    molecules to right handed surfaces and vice versa.

    No magical blue-print. Bio-chemical compounds just form naturally (if physically allowed). The emergence of Life in bio-chemical patterns is a probability, not a supernatural elan vital.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Evolution_(book)

    This is not necessary for life to emerge. The emergence of Life needs not be a motivated action at all. It's a natural bio-chemical potential.

    There is a natural tendency for "movement in the direction of greatest satisfaction" but that is a passive universal potential, coming into play only by chance during combinatory chemical processes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  19. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I cant help think that Jan is probably a science teacher in the real world specialising in evolution and big bang cosmology who has adopted the persona of a uninformed creationist to run false flag campaigns to absolutely discredit the made up stories in the bible and draw attention to the sad fact there are people out there matching the character that Jan presents here so as to get the message out there that science offers correct answers to all the questions that creationist continually get wrong.

    Alex
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Jan is part of a global conspiracy to make science respectable.........

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  21. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    From Jan Ardena Post 126
    I am guessing that Jan does not believe in evolution.

    Note that evolution does not deal with the origin of life. It deals with events after life came into existence.

    Your Post 126 incorrectly implies that evolution includes some description of how life started,

    Evolution deals with events after life started.

    From my Post 125
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    17,571
    I understand the context in which you use of the term evolution of "living things", but I believe the concept of evolutionary processes are apparent from the very beginning of chemical interactions in the formation of more or less functional or efficient polymers.

    Dr. Hazen specifically mentions this in his lecture.
    I understood him to say that wherever mutation occurs (even in chemistry), a natural selection process selects for successful and desirable attributes as compared to older patterns.
    Evolution (mutation) and natural selection (for desirable abilities).
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  23. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    My assertion that Jan is most probably an atheist brings no rebutal I find that interesting dont you?

    And his tactics to make atheists think more about how silly religion really is certainly works.

    And notice how he does not argue against the reality that the bible is made up ...

    he is clearly intelligent enough to cause mugs like me to point out the inexhaustble supply of flaws whilst he lays a trail of crumbs to the next nonsence he will have us argue against.

    Only a clever intelligent atheist could do that.

    He is very clever but thats an atheist for you.

    I was reading how many kids wise up when they attend college and with some real education under their belts become atheist and also how the better educated folk are the more likely that they are atheist.

    No doubt Jan is very well educated and very intelligent so the odds that he is really a theist are pretty slim.


    Alex
     

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