# Creating the worlds strongest sword?

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by EmptyForceOfChi, Oct 30, 2005.

1. ### Rotten NoodlesRegistered Member

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Swords in War
Tests have shown a guy with a knife has to be less than 10 yards away to stand a chance against a firearm, short range even for handguns. A sword gives you only an extra yard. Meanwhile, practiced shooters can put >5 rounds a second into your chest at >5 yards. As far as reliability, the M4 is 98% reliable after 6000 rounds and 6 months of having dust dumped in it, and its considered an unreliable weapon by many.

There's a reason why many newer assault rifles have no bayonet lug.

Even in ye olde days, swords were weapons of last resort. The samurai, Mongols, and Romans didn't draw their swords until they ran out of arrows/javelins and broke their spears. The English longbow and Swiss pike creamed knights (who preferred lances) repeatedly.

3. ### draqonBannedBanned

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well rooten noodles...I will make sure to shoot first before I take out that samurai sword of mine

5. ### Rotten NoodlesRegistered Member

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Katana vs. All Comers
Contrary to popular opinion, the katana is NOT the ultimate sword. It's as heavy as European cutting broadswords (ARMA has a good article on the subject), fares poorly against plate armor, and is slower than thrusting weapons like the rapier. When the Japanese fought the Mongols, the tips often snapped off in the Mongols' armor. Modern kenjutsu enthusiasts, even experienced ones, snap blades with poorly-executed cuts against tatami bundles (hence the tool steel sword I mentioned earlier).

Having said that, the katana probably kills faster than European blades. Master swordsmen could cut unarmored men in half with a katana, whereas broadswords struggled to amputate limbs and rapier wounds often took several minutes to kill. It was not uncommon for the victor to be the one that died slowest. :crazy:

So if I were to bet on a fight between an unarmored samurai and an unarmored rapier-and-dagger duelist, I'd bet a fair sum that the duelist, with his much faster weapon, would run the samurai through, but the samurai would promptly dismember him ... and then bleed to death shortly thereafter.

7. ### Rotten NoodlesRegistered Member

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Good idea ... unless you're Morpheus. :thumbsup:

Look, I know I'm stating the obvious, but, judging by a lot of the posts here, it's not obvious enough.

And yes, I also know that this is me: :soapbox:

8. ### draqonBannedBanned

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well rotten noodles...I was going to buzzzz a bit again...

its about you stating katana killing faster than European sword...well my objection to that is that Europeans had steel armor whereas Asian cultures worn leather at most...

or am I in the darkness?

9. ### DinosaurRational SkepticValued Senior Member

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I would expect extruding through multiple apertures to produce the best steel swords no matter what alloy was being worked. Forging a shape like a sword or knife blade would not produce the best grain structure, although it would be far better than a casting process.

I suppose hammering using open dies might produce a good grain structure, but is more labor intensive for a slightly inferior result.

Many people do not know some of the effects of drawing and extruding processes. For example:
• If you apply extreme tensile stress to certain steel rods, causing the rod to stretch & reducing the cross sectional area, you invariably increase the TensileStrength/CrossSection ratio. You also make the rod less likely to break due to bending stress and fracture due to impact shock.

• For some steel alloys, the stretched rod with smaller cross sectional area has higher absolute tensile strength than the original rod.
Steel has a grain structure analogous to wood. Upset forging of a bolt head, drawing, & extruding of other shapes tends to result in superior grain structures.

BTW: A bit of golf club history. There was a time when golf clubs had wooden heads and shafts. Golf makers would plant a tree on the side of a cliiff. This would result in the tree starting to grow perpendicular to the cliff face and then turning to grow upward. The result could be carved into a club with an excellent grain structure.

10. ### Rotten NoodlesRegistered Member

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Actually, samurai typically wore metal-on-silk brigandine, which is heavier, less protective, and more constrictive than well-made European plate or chainmail. It's counterintuitive, I know, but it's true.

Also, I think most Asian armor relied on textiles rather than leather (ex: Mongols' silk armor).

Regardless, when I said the katana killed faster I was speaking of unarmored targets. Dismemberment has great stopping power, after all.

11. ### Rotten NoodlesRegistered Member

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Dinosaur:

That's really cool stuff! But wouldn't the metal's strength be directionally-dependent like graphite? I know squat about metal grain structure, but it seems like extrusion/drawing would align the grains such that the blade would have a strong edge and weak tip.

If so, I think it would be a poor choice for swords. A slightly stronger cutting edge wouldn't make up for the loss of strength at the tip. Thrusts have been a crucial component of swordsmanship for thousands of years.

12. ### DinosaurRational SkepticValued Senior Member

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Rotten Noodles: To the best of my knowledge, the tip of an extruded or drawn sword would be as strong (probably stronger) than the tip of a blade produced by any other method.

I would expect that some extra processing is required after the final drawinbg or extruding is done. Neither drawing nor extruding would produce a sharp edge or a point at the end.

Before I became a programmer in the early fifties, I expected to go into my father's business which required a knowledge of forging, casting, machining, et cetra of metal. When I discovered that his business was really a hobby, I realized that I would be paid to do nothing while he ran everything. The situation would result in our arguuing all the time, ruining a very good relationship.

My knowledge of metalurgy & related technology might be out of date in certain certain situations ( I was never an expert), but is probably fairly close to the being correct.

Grain parallel to the long dimension is best. Grain following the contour of an object like a bolt is best.

BTW: Cold (instead of hot) forging, drawing, extruding produces more stength and better grain structure. It is often not used due to the economics. Dies do not last as long and it requires far more pressure/energy than hot working of metal.

Related to the above, rolled threads are stronger than cut threads due to the grain folowing the contour of the thread surfaces. The process is always done cold. If you ever notice threads which have a larger diameter than the rod or bolt, they are rolled. The process is faster than cutting threads.

13. ### sl4kRegistered Member

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I only have limited knowledge of swords and swordmaking, but what would happen if you press lets say carbon steel under a very heavy amount?

14. ### draqonBannedBanned

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carbon steel? heh? whats that?

15. ### Rotten NoodlesRegistered Member

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Carbon steel is any alloy that consists almost entirely of iron and carbon. It's pretty much the only kind of steel people had back in the day, but it's relatively rare today because it corrodes like crazy. Most steel now has stuff like chromium, molybdenum, and tungsten.

However, carbon steel's raw components are cheap and its properties can be easily adjusted by varying the iron-carbon ratio and heat treatment. That's why it's used in both $50-per-ton rebar and$200 cooking knives.

16. ### heavyarmsRegistered Member

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A real thought

I've seen alot of differant ways of making a sword and as a real swordsman I know the uses of every type of imaginable. But i thought of maybe a possible way to make a real durible sword and armor. Lets start with the sword! Now as most of you know tungsten is incredibly strong and what if you were to make a truditional japanese kitana and reinforce it to withstand heat? Becuase as most of you know carbon is resistant to heat to a degree. But you take the sword and make it to heat resistant then quickly dip it in liquid tungsten or molten tungsten for some of you. And you slowly add layers like making a candle or spray pianting an object. In this mannor you can make a sword with the wieght of a regular sword but with the resistance of tungsten! You can accually make an armor that is light and durible by repeating the proccess. Even if a sword is made of tungsten I could wield it like a regular sword. I train every weekend with an iron rod that is 60ins easy and it has to wiegh 7lbs. Even so the sword isn't the one that needs to train it's the user!

17. ### Pinocchio's HoofPay the Devil, or else.......£Registered Senior Member

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I'm chef, and there are titanium knives available and your probably looking £250-£500. $500-$1,000 for a small paring knife, my main concern after feel when buying a knife is how long a knife will stay sharpe for and how easy it is to keep the blade fine.
My favourite has been Sabatier but found that within a year, year and a half the blade stars to wear, And some of the lighter ones chip to easily.
I saw some petrol stained titanium knives in a little shop in amsterdam (End of the Waarmastraat,on the corner of Dam square), nice feel, blue,purpley metallic tint but the blade, but the narrowness in the bottom half of the blade made me question it's lifespan.
There are some other combinations steel coated with titanium nitride,chronium and carbides.
After a few days use I would generaly sharpen my knife every 2/3hrs (if continualy used) or if the blade is dud before every use.
I would be interested to see a controled experiment with different blades on durability, perhaps all placed on mechanical sharpners see how long they last,
and have the blades blunted see how easily they sharpen?

And i :jason:'m well into weapons broadsword's, samurai, kwan-do,sai etc

as martial arts weapons were generaly tools with duel use, i shall let you into a secret kitchen weapon- you will need

1) one dishcloth
2) one tin of beans
3) one egg (to make rotton egg please place in freezer for 1 week, and outside for 1week)

open towel, empty in beans, place broken egg in middle.
bring 4 corners toghether above bean mix and twist,

siwng around your head like a bola, or sling and aim in any direction whatever, whoever it hits it will spray over about 20ft radius of anything around LOL.

What would the weight difference be between a tungsten and steel sword?

18. ### DryzalaxeanRegistered Member

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ok i think the reason y people think katanas are the best sword in the flipin world is because o the movie, anime shows, mythbusters (sword special), and people ranting on and on about flipin nija shyt... im a fan in eurpoian bastard swords to be truly honest, i dont like single edged swords i think theyre clumsy and give you limited tecniqes. and so on and so on... and to get back on topic.. my personal opinion *if this was possable*... make a complete diamond sword with a lining of some strong metal to case it in. in my opinion that will be a strong sword and my choice of weapon... diamon metal coated bsatard sword... yup.. ^-^

19. ### cosmictravelerBe kind to yourself always.Valued Senior Member

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The strongest sword is one which is never used.

20. ### heavyarmsRegistered Member

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Agreement

I agree with you Dryzalazean on the fact that a bastard sword has many uses. I personnaly love broadswords. In terms of attack power there is no match but the question is how fast can you swing that sword before someone cuts your stomach open with a kitana. I'm not saying that broadswords have a limited ability. Once again I know how you feel with BROAD SWORDS but when you think of it you only have one shot with it and thats why I think alot of real swordsmen rather have a kitana than a broadsword. With no dought if you make contact with a kitana using a broadsword you will WIN! Assuming you can make contact. And as for the mister who happens to be a cook. I think you are in the right field to know everything about a knife. Yah! You need a knife that won't dull after only 3hours of cooking so might i siguest that you look into maybe using the new ceramic knives. I you are a good cook you shouldn't be able to break them like a noob. And from what i heard you sound like you know what your doing so there shouldn't be any problem. But back to the main question. The ultimate sword? I truly don't think there can be one because somewhere down the road someone will make an even stronger lighter material. But for now using my original idea that i posted earlier and if dryzalaxean dosn't mind me using his idea also. Use the new tech that we have and make real artificial diamond sword. This way it's got the strangth of diamond. Then dunk it in tungsten quickly then repeat the proccess. put a cuople of layers of tungsten on it and there you go!

21. ### heavyarmsRegistered Member

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In addition to that cosmictravelier has a point!

22. ### Pinocchio's HoofPay the Devil, or else.......£Registered Senior Member

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1,106
too light, and they do break chip too easily.
nothing beats the weight,feel, balance of metal.
one peice sabatier sand blasted, available from france, good blades.

unless they've revamped the ceramic knife

:bagpuss:yes very zen

23. ### heavyarmsRegistered Member

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I agree with that, I'm just saying if you want something that with be sharp that's a possibility. I do agree on the fact that cooking cutlery should be left to the french thay know how to make a fine butchers knife... I know I use to have one............ Until someone put it in the trash compacter............... crap. But anywho that mean idea is if you make something extremely sharp and will stay sharp forever it will probly be incredibly expensive.