Created by vs. Descended from?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Carcano, Apr 4, 2013.

  1. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,865
    Have you ever wondered what it feels like to believe you were descended from the divine...as opposed to being created by the divine.

    This is what the Japanese followers of Shinto believe.

    What about the ancient Romans...Greeks?

    If you believe you were created...this raises a question.

    Created for what???
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    A lateral world view (ie a world view that doesn't see any higher and lower order/values in life) has no scope beyond the fulfillment of personal desire, or, in rare cases extrapolating that to extensions of one's body

    (so it becomes a case of my family, my people, my country etc)
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. IfIonlyhadabrain Registered Member

    Messages:
    84
    And also, descended for what?
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,631
    There is a huge difference in spiritual self-esteem:
    Those who believe they were descended look upon the gods as kin an on themselves as god-like: noble and proud. Those who believe they are mere artifacts, look up to a vastly superior, distant and judgmental god: they are abject and guilty.

    However, there seems to be no difference in action:
    The descended attack their neighbours for the greater glory of themselves; the created attack their neighbours for the greater glory of their god. Result, either way: lots of dead people.
     
  8. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    So you don't think having parents engenders any sort standard for behavior, attitude or value?

    Or is it because you "descended" from certain persons, certain things are established in your life (aside from their genetic material)?
     
  9. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    I was born to love you!


    How many pop songs have that line?
     
  10. IfIonlyhadabrain Registered Member

    Messages:
    84
    Not sure how you surmised all of that from the simple question that I posed, but okay.
     
  11. IfIonlyhadabrain Registered Member

    Messages:
    84
    I don't see this as particularly true. At least, I haven't experienced this.

    This is a rather pessimistic outlook. Why is death the only thing you see here?
     
  12. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,862
    Let us first understand what Shino ACTUALLY is:


    The creation myth of Shinto is recorded in the ca. 712 Kojiki. It is a depiction of the events leading up to and including the creation of the Japanese Islands. There are many translations of the story with variations of complexity.
    Izanagi-no-Mikoto (male) and Izanami-no-Mikoto (female) were called by all the myriad gods and asked to help each other to create a new land which was to become Japan.
    They were given a spear with which they stirred the water, and when removed water dripped from the end, an island was created in the great nothingness.
    They lived on this island, and created a palace and within was a large pole.
    When they wished to bear offspring, they performed a ritual each rounding a pole, male to the left and female to the right, the female greeting the male first.
    They had 2 children (islands) which turned out badly and they cast them out. They decided that the ritual had been done incorrectly the first time.
    They repeated the ritual but according to the correct laws of nature, the male spoke first.
    They then gave birth to the 8 perfect islands of the Japanese archipelago.
    After the islands, they gave birth to the other Kami, Izanami-no-Mikoto dies and Izanagi-no-Mikoto tries to revive her.
    His attempts to deny the laws of life and death have bad consequences.

    The islands of Japan are to be considered a paradise as they were directly created by the gods for the people of Japan, and were ordained by the higher spirits to be created into the Japanese empire. Shinto is the fundamental connection between the power and beauty of nature (the land) and the people of Japan. It is the manifestation of a path to understanding the institution of divine power.


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...0YHQBw&usg=AFQjCNGG89dEfXyTFuazcVC075L_jMsfgQ
     
  13. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,865
    Why are higher/lower values exclusively associated with creation...in your view?
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  14. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,865
    A motive is implied only by creation...not by descent.
     
  15. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,865
    Brilliant post!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  16. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,865
    Indeed...sin in this case becomes a matter of bringing dishonour upon our sacred ancestors.

    In the creation scenario, sin is a matter of subverting the motive for which you were created.
     
  17. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,865
    A divinity that creates...to be worshipped by the created?

    Isnt that like building a palace of mirrors in which to admire oneself?
     
  18. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,865
    Yes, its also a genealogy of the Japanese people...which traces their ancestral origins to the Gods.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kojiki
     
  19. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,631
    It's not the only thing i see, but i do see an awful lot of it, and it does make me pessimistic. The point here was that it doesn't seem to make any difference what religion, what cosmology, what origin myth, what world-view a people started out with: when it reaches a certain degree of advancement and population, every civilization embarks upon the imperial adventure. Then the belief-system is interpreted - and if necessary, re-interpreted and looped through hoops - to endorse the aggression.
     
  20. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,152
    When I think of Shinto I think of dangerous obsessive insanity. In Greek and Roman eras there are some striking examples of the same insanity. I don't think "created by" was necessarily always significantly different than "descended from" - especially when you consider how these words may translate as one and the same in some languages and cultures. The more common way of looking at this is through the lens of the creation of the anthropomorphic gods. Since ancient people were evidently in mortal competition for resources, they obviously needed an edge, something to rally the young men to live and die for the empire. Their gods gave them that kind of edge, particularly where they were led to believe they were "the chosen ones". Ironically it was the Hebrews, who cast it quite frankly just like that, who never escaped the misery of being the perpetual underdogs, marooned at the crossroads of every major collision between warring empires of that region, there in the crucible of the ancient world.
     
  21. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    How so?

    To descend means, among other things, to now be on a lesser level than previously. There must be a reason, a motive for this descent.

    Leaving aside what this implies for the idea that "man descended from apes (or whatever)" - you might need to rethink the concept of "descent" and use a term that doesn't have connotations that you do not intend.



    You give love a bad name!

    One can truly enjoy one's riches only if one shares them with others.
     
  22. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,631
    Oh, and they also invent some mighty peculiar definitions of 'love'.
     
  23. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,865
    Not necessarily...man is believed by many to be descended from apes, and yet is not considered lower or lesser than apes.

    This evolutionary descent is also not conscious...and therefore without motive or guiding principle.
     

Share This Page