Crazy things famous Christians say

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Magical Realist, May 31, 2014.

  1. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Does coddling someome with stupid and dangerous beliefs equate to compassion? Not in my world. That would be making myself an accomplice.

    I agree.

    Now you're talking about being quiet and not challenging anyone's beliefs. That's got nothing to do with respect. I mean, using that definition, you aren't treating me with respect, because you're telling me my bekiefs are wrong. Obviously, this isn't a world even you want to live in, so why harp on about It?

    And if people don't want to have their beliefs questioned, don't bring them up.

    Why would I want to do that? Why should I let stupid and dangerous ideas go unchecked? Why shouldn't I disagree with someone else's worldview if I thi k it's flawed or inferior? You keep saying we shouldn't do this, but why not? Because it might offend you? Since when do you have the right to not be offended?

    You're contradicting yourself. Earlier, you said we should tell peolle what's wrong with their beliefs. Now yiu say we should. Which is it? And why should I listen to you anyway? I mean, I agree that there should be a dialogue, but I don't think that dialogue necessarily needs to be civil or overly concerned with the feelings of the other party. If Westboro Baptist protests a funeral, I don't personally care if my jeers hurt their feelings. Why should I?

    Not necessarily. Many people are converted--in botb directions, and within subsets of each--through argument. And just because some people are thickheaded isn't a good reason to shut up.

    Theze arent mutually-exclusive ideas. I can debate fanatics while remaining flexible and introspective. Beliefs aren't necessarily binary.
     
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  3. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    They talk about warning & judgment without mentioning god. I don't think they're thinking 2 men have sex then POOF some disaster happens. God sees and/or hears something it does not like (or maybe there's a buzzing in its ears whenever there is any sex happening on Earth), humans being human, so god punishes. They blame puny humans for what they claim an OMNIPOTENT god does.

    They believe judgment is coming, no matter what. Many look forward to it. Yet they whine about puny humans causing it.

    According to the portrayal in the HolyBabble, Paul was a shining example of pompous.
     
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  5. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    long time Dwy..

    lost as to your point though..
    (the first one)

    if someone came up to me and tried to tell me the earth was flat(or any of that stuff), I would say "really?, I believe the world is round", then find an excuse to distance myself from them, I do not need to stay and tell them everything wrong about their beliefs, or stay and convince them my belief is more right than theirs. (we are talking RL,)
     
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  7. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    The first quote of yours says to respect people REGARDLESS of their beliefs - implicitly excluding their beliefs from automatic respect (in fact it's an implication that the belief may be disrespected so long the person still is).
    The second quote says that their beliefs SHOULD be respected.
    It struck me as dichotomous.

    Hmm, you'd distance yourself from them.
    Isn't that disrespectful?
    After all if they hadn't expressed that belief (or even didn't hold it) would you distance yourself?
    You appear (I'm assuming here that you wouldn't move away from someone who didn't hold/ hadn't expressed that belief) to be exhibiting one sort of behaviour toward one person and another sort to the other: based solely on a belief they hold.

    Just sayin'...

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  8. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    coddling? no..
    (see response to Dwy)

    good then that means you will watch the insults?


    oooh..there is a loaded question...
    not be quiet, be respectful, you can challenge a persons beliefs by not attacking them, treat the person like they do have a brain, do not insult and judge.

    you seem to be using the term respect in the context of codling.. "you aren't treating me with respect" followed by "because you're telling me..blah"
    iow you are feeling bad because you are thinking I am telling you, you are wrong, so you want me to coddle you? or challenge you?

    here is a challenge: when you get to feeling 'wrong' ask yourself how you are causing yourself to feel 'wrong'.
    IOW is it the other person making you feel 'wrong' or is it your own thoughts that are doing it?
    at this point you can see the complexity of this 'wrong' feeling, which is why we as intelligent ppl should avoid this distraction, not by silence or inactivity, but by understanding, intelligence and compassion.

    btw, this is what I am talking about.. understand how you are feeling when you think someone is telling you, you are wrong, and avoid doing the same to them.

    you think I am telling you your beliefs are wrong, (I have never claimed that, you assume that)



    no I am not saying don't do that, I am saying do that with respect for the others in order to get through to them.
    if all you do is insult, then all it will be is a flame war and no one will get 'educated'

    "Because it might offend you? Since when do you have the right to not be offended?"

    oh don't get me started.. the only thing that offends me is a person who gets offended, what right do they have to put their feelings above mine!


    yeah, I do that once in awhile..
    it happens, we are talking about human behavior after all..

    see above on how you felt about being wrong..
    understand how that distracts from any 'educating'


    don't.. but do not dismiss my thoughts out of hand.. test them, find out for yourself, form your own beliefs, and own them, do not rely on just one persons understanding.


    because there is no dialog when all you are doing is putting them on the defensive, it becomes a flame war and nothing gets discussed.
    an ability to insult and demean is not an indicator of intelligence or of right and wrong.
     
  9. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    I think your reading too much into that..
    maybe regardless was the wrong word..

    Hey! no comments from the peanut gallery!!

    if they did not say, then I would not know.
     
  10. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    last minute addition to response to balerion..

    because without civil discussion we get this:
     
  11. Balerion Banned Banned

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    If you have a point to make to me, then say it to me. Don't make me slog through your replies to someone else. You know, respect and all that.

    What insults?

    Cry me a river. No, seriously. You're conflating calling an idea stupid with personally insulting or attacking a person. Once your view of argument matures to the point that you can see the difference between a person and their ideas, then you can start giving advice on how to deal with them, okay?

    No, I'm showing you that by your own definition of respect--which apparently means do not tell people what is wrong with their way of thinking--you are disrespecting me. I point this out to demonstrate the absurdity of your argument, and how even you can't seem to abide by it.

    I freely accept you challenging me on my thinking. That's why I asked you repeatedly to explain to me why I should act as you say.

    I'm sorry, I don't know what this has to do with anything. Are you suggesting that one can't change another's mind? That we're all immune to reason when presented by a person we disagree with initially? Come on.

    I don't know what this means.

    Oh yes you most certainly are. You're telling me that I am wrong for telling others their beliefs are wrong. You're telling me I should abide by a set of rules you allegedly (but don't really) adhere to. If you didn't think I was wrong, you wouldn't be trying to correct my behavior.

    That's not at all what you said, though. You're changing your story. This one is definitely more reasonable, but I still don't believe everyone should be treated with respect by default. Respect is earned, not given.

    And I again have to take issue with the notion that one has to be polite in disagreement to have any impact. That's patently false, and testimonials from converts on all sides will show this.

    It didn't distract me at all. You said my way of going about things is wrong. I disagree, but I've also asked why I should come around to your way of thinking. So far you've only suggested that "insults" will make people turn away, which I know for a fact to be incorrect. So, I ask again: Why should I come around to your way of thinking?

    Thanks, Ghandi.

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    It isn't about winning an argument, it's about changing minds. That takes time, and I don't expect it to happen in the course of one debate. And, for the record, if someone presents me with a stupid idea, I'm going to say it's a stupid idea. If that puts them on the defense, good. They should be defensive about holding stupid beliefs. They should shame for holding dangerous beliefs. Once they get past their anger, they'll hopefully feel those emotions and process the arguments against them as a salve to ease the burn.
     
  12. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Yes, the great philosopher Charles Schultz.

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    Where has civil discussion gotten us, exactly? What change can you point to and say "That is explicitely the result of gentle suggestion, with no feelings hurt on either side?"
     
  13. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    So you're saying that people should be respected whatever belief they hold?

    Oh hush Grandma!

    Agreed.
    But you did say that you'd move away IF they said.
    In other words you're not giving them the same respect as you would someone who hadn't said/ didn't hold that belief.
    And that difference in the respect you're according them is due to... their belief.

    (Wanna start back-pedalling now or should I wait until the aimless flailing starts for a better spectacle? You had easy while I was away and now I'm back baby!)
     
  14. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    reasonability always..


    I said distance myself, not move.. and it was the short simple version, if that's all they did, there would not be a problem, if they kept trying to convince me, regardless of anything I said, then I would limit my contact/communications with them. (distancing my self, since they seem to not respect my beliefs)


    did that count as flailing or back pedaling?



    testimonials from all sides?
    do You listen better when someone is insulting you? (note capital, meaning this is intended for you personally and not just a misspoke generic 'you')

    to me this argues that a person wins a debate just because he's a better insulter, do you care whether ppl think you are right because you have the ability to 'shut them up'? or because you are right?

    to me the insulter is just using insults to intimidate the other person into agreeing with them.
    is this the kind of actions you are arguing for? to be a bully?



    show me where there has been 'gentle discussion'..(asked in context)

    out of context:
    here as we are doing now.
    I can communicate what I believe and you can communicate what you believe, you do not have to accept what I believe, just as I do not have to accept what you believe, I can still respect that you believe what you believe, I do not have to intimidate or otherwise 'force' you to believe as I do, I expect for you to treat me as I treat you, (do onto others..) meaning I expect you to not insult me when we have a discussion.


    ah another can of worms.. and the root of this discussion..
    how we feel.
    what makes you feel?

    I don't feel bad when I am wrong,
    I feel bad when someone is trying too hard to make me 'feel' wrong, (insults and demeaning comments)(yes, I am oversensitive on this, but I hope reasonably)
    just because I 'feel' wrong, does not make me wrong.
    if you focus on making me 'feel' wrong then my efforts start to turn from any discussion to make it stop.
    I know how I think, I know what speaks to me and what doesn't, I know how I learn,
    my momma told me 'you haven't ever thought about anything that someone else has not thought about'' (see: encourage not discourage your kids!)
    and she was right.. which means I am not the only one who thinks and feels this way.

    i'm not trying to be the answer man, I'm not, I am only communicating what I think, feel, believe, (since every time I say 'I know' someone proves me wrong..)
    I can only explain as far as I understand it, I know I come across egotistical and what not, but this is how I communicate my thoughts/ideas, I do not set out to convince ppl my opinions/thoughts are any better or worse than theirs,

    but I do get caught up in answering the questions as best I can,

    so if your intent is to find something wrong with what I say, you will find it, if your intent is to find understanding in anything I say, that too you may find(I hope), as my momma said ' there aint nothing you can think of that someone else hasn't thought of' IOW its not just my ideals, I have picked them up throughout my life as these are what I tested from others and found to be true, i'm just(hopefully) trying to pass them along.

    I had a science teacher Mr Prince, started the class off with "you get out of life what you put into it, no more, no less"..
    over the years it evolved, morphed a little with 'life is what you make it',

    my opinions/beliefs are what you make of them, no more no less..
     
  15. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Different people have differing definitions of "reasonable".

    Tsk, semantic quibble.
    Distancing yourself IS moving: whether physically, intellectually or emotionally.

    So you WOULDN'T move distance yourself, in any way, at the first mention? It takes repetition?

    Ah, so you're claiming that it's not due to their belief so much as you feeling... what? insulted?
    And not respecting their belief that it's okay to tell you all about it.

    I did ask if you wanted to start now. It's up to you whether or not you do.
    BTW is NOW claiming it was the "short simple version" getting the bicycle ready?
     
  16. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    its all about 'do onto others as you would have them do onto you'
    if they are communicating 'this is how I believe'
    then all is fine (with exceptions) we can both discuss our different beliefs without feeling like the other is trying to get us to give up our own respective beliefs
    if they are communicating ' this is how you should believe'
    then there is a problem.

    with the 'do onto others' rule, imagine the interaction between both groups, the former would be peaceful the later would be chaotic..


    thought of that.. it didn't quite qualify.. I usually assume ppl know more than they do..
     
  17. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Got it.
    That's what you believe and if someone doesn't believe that as well you'll "distance" yourself.
    Because you don't respect their belief.

    And you've obviously forgotten how pedantic I am.
    NVM I'll remind you as we go along.

    In other words you're saying you didn't respect us enough to make yourself as clear as possible?
    Just assumed we'd know exactly what you meant?

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  18. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    as clear as I can make it, does not necessarily mean as clear as it can be..

    and yes I assume you know what I mean.
    till you say or do something that tells me otherwise, I have no information to gauge how you would understand otherwise.
     
  19. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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  20. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    That IS civil discussion.
     
  21. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    1 of thousands of silly sayings people love to spout which is not valid. Many people get much more than they put into it & many people get much less.
     
  22. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    depends on how much money you have..
    yea, but that toon is still funny, it says to me believe as she does or she will hit you.
     
  23. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    what?
    did I kill another discussion/conversation?
     

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