COVID-19 Source: Will we ever know?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Quantum Quack, May 5, 2020.

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  1. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    and you think bats are sold only in markets????
     
    Quantum Quack, May 9, 2020
    #61

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  3. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Seriously though, with all the BS flying around the White House and people seemingly accepting the Chinese bat source as a fact instead of speculation, will we ever know the origin of this disease?
    With out objectivity winning over paranoia we haven't a hope of find out the truth.
    Bats are popular foods in many countries and are not just a Chinese specialty.

    There are probably a number of nations that have clusters of pneumonia on their historical records that have not been tested for COVID and we may find that the virus has been in the population for many months if not years and remained undetected except as unexplained pneumonia. The virus may then have mutated into something more severe..and was transported to Wuhan as part of the lead up to their Chinese New year from any where, including outside China.

    The fact that a pneumonia cluster incident in Wuhan occurred near a reputed virology lab, could indicate why the Chinese were first to identify this unexplained pneumonia initially referred to as the Wuhan flu. They had specialist facilities at hand.

    Obviously if medical researches focused on historical clusters of untested pneumonia say dating back 12 months around the world we may eventually get close to finding ground zero for COVID-19.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2020
    Quantum Quack, May 9, 2020
    #62

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  5. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    dup
     
    Quantum Quack, May 9, 2020
    #62

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  7. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    They did not get it from eating bats.

    Nor did they get it from killing bats for consumption.

    It went from bats to a host animal, which is where it again mutated and infected humans.

    Just like the Hendra virus spreads to horses on farms and then jumps to humans after horses eat grass or fruit that may have been infected by bat poo, pee or saliva - if the bat carries the virus.
     
    Bells, May 9, 2020
    #63

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  9. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    All wildlife trade in China, including bat meat, was banned in January 2020 in response to the coronavirus pandemic which originated in Wuhan.
    wiki​
    It was actually a temporary ban that is waiting appropriate legislation. The ban has not been enforced apparently, as many links will testify.
     
    Quantum Quack, May 9, 2020
    #64
  10. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Billvon went on his tangent. I do not know the source or how it was transmitted.
    That is a bold claim to make as they simply do not know...
    They are not even sure that it has Bat origin as it genetically is only similar to previous outbreaks.
    According to my research it has both bat and avian structures..which means it could have been avian in origins, avian to bat or bat to avian or something quite novel.
    They simply do not know at this stage.
     
    Quantum Quack, May 9, 2020
    #65
  11. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    It would be safer to eat cooked bat meat than to eat unwashed fruit, herbs, greens or vegetables or to eat another animal or meat that would be consumed rare or uncooked.

    Banning the sale of bat meat will not stop any future pandemics.

    It is not a tangent.

    It is fact.

    We know it was not directly from bats because it mutated in the other animal it infected before it jumped and infected humans.

    They still don't know what that other animal is, but they know it jumped from bats to another species before that animal then infected humans.

    So you are ranting about bats in wet markets for no actual reason. You, like the right wing nutbags with a racist bent (such as Dutton and Morrison) have it completely backwards.

    On the contrary, they know it jumped from bat and infected another animal(s) before it or they infected humans.

    Evidence points to bats and then an intermediary animal before it jumped again to humans.
     
    Bells, May 9, 2020
    #66
  12. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Let us assume you are correct and that the scientists know that the bat to intermediate animal is true... ok?
    Now imagine this scenario:
    Down town Wuhan we have a wet market that sells live bats and slaughtered bats.
    You stand in front of the marketeers stall area and you see a cage full of terrified and stressed living bats suspended above a cage full of terrified Civets.
    You notice the live bats urinating and dropping excrement onto the cage full of terrified and stressed out Civets below.
    Both the Civet and the bats are known harbourers of various viruses. The viruses mingle and generate a new and deadly to humans virus
    The subsequent deadly virus has genetic markers that implicate the bat and the Civet.
    Someone buys the contagious Civet to produce perfume and acquires more than they bargained for.

    It is not the direct handling of the Bat or Civet but the close proximity of both animals being held in terrified and stressed out states that may be.
     
    Quantum Quack, May 9, 2020
    #67
  13. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    only because of your narrow focus... do you say such tripe...

    mind you I agree with the bit about Dutton being a right wing nut bag...Morrison is not quite in the same league but close...
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2020
    Quantum Quack, May 9, 2020
    #68
  14. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    Sweet Jesus, Mary, Joseph..

    Viruses mingle? What?

    Do you think it happens that fast?

    That's not how it works...

    ..the human Sars-CoV-2 has additional changes that allows it to infect humans,” he said, adding that the bat virus would have had to circulate, and evolve, for a number of years before mutating enough to be able to infect people.​

    I'm not the one ranting about bats and wet markets because you still cannot understand that the virus mutated and whatever animal that passed it onto humans would have caught it well before it even arrived in any "wet market".. It would have mutated over a long period of time.

    So your obsession with wet markets and your Eurocentric argument is baseless and is simply based on media hype.
     
    Bells, May 9, 2020
    #69
  15. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Actually it is contrary to media hype... you on the other hand are just repeating it...
    We do not know the source. Evidence only POINTS to certain areas that require further investigation.
    As soon as you think you know when you don't the virus wins.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2020
    Quantum Quack, May 9, 2020
    #70
  16. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    How long do you think the bats and Civet or any intermediate host animal, may have been held in shared captivity. In what conditions? How many years have the traders being doing this?
    All sorts of questions and all hypothetical because we simply do not know.
    Perhaps you and most media underestimate just how novel this COVID-19 is?
     
    Quantum Quack, May 9, 2020
    #71
  17. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    At the moment the global human population could be described as a huge mutating viral petri dish, and given this virus is novel anything could happen before it finally dies off..
    At the moment the only defense we have is physical distancing but that may yet prove inadequate and fail.
    It is called novel for a reason..
     
    Quantum Quack, May 9, 2020
    #72
  18. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    In your exasperation you have actually raised an interesting point.
    If as they and you say, and this Novel Virus is indeed novel then it must have been in circulation, mutating a long time before it manifested the capacity to transmit to humans. This even more leads to the questioning whether China was indeed the source or not and relates to this threads topic. and OP.
    "Will we ever know?"
     
    Quantum Quack, May 9, 2020
    #73
  19. exchemist

    exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Crap. Now you are recycling nonsense in an endless loop. We know, I say again, we know it is derived from a very similar bat virus, found in caves in Yunnan, in China. No purpose is served by talking up other sources when there is zero evidence for any other source.

    The only bits we don't know are what animal served as the intermediate and whether the intermediation took place in the wild (highly probable, since that is what has happened many times before) or via some lab work and then an accidental release (possible, but less likely).

    We may never know which if China is uncooperative, which they may have good reason to be if everyone keeps threatening them with retribution.
     
    exchemist, May 9, 2020
    #74
  20. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    What you are spouting about "wet markets" is exactly what Dutton has been ranting about and the media have been gasping about - without any shred of understanding of Chinese culture, practices and worse still, you're all going on about bats, while forgetting that while bats may be a reservoir for coronavirus, it is jumping species and mutates for years before it leaps into humans.

    You are going on about the same stupid thing while ignoring the obvious.

    It's called novel because it is new.

    It mutated.

    And it is from China.

    So please, for the love of all that is holy, stop posting even more crap.
     
    Bells, May 9, 2020
    #75
  21. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    please read the OP....
    and maybe get a grip...
     
    Quantum Quack, May 9, 2020
    #76
  22. Quantum Quack

    Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    not at all .. I have no scientific reason to believe it comes from China or even wet markets...
    Why do you think like Dutton does, that it comes from China?
    It is true that the first case was confirmed in China but this in no way says that the virus originates from China.

    My argument was that IF the Chinese government had found that it originates from Wuhan then they would have behaved very differently.

    Now notice the capital and bolded word IF.
    As I said I do not believe there is any scientific reason to believe that the virus originates in China. At the moment it is speculation only.
    That is why a thorough investigation is necessary. First to clear China of direct responsibility if founded and to put the paranoid ramblings of the mass media, Trump, Dutton and others in perspective.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2020
    Quantum Quack, May 9, 2020
    #77
  23. exchemist

    exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    The virus is 96% identical to a virus found in bats in Yunnan. So what do you mean there is "no evidence"?
     
    exchemist, May 9, 2020
    #78
  24. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    So your repeated ranting about China reopening wet markets is what, exactly?

    Oh yes:

    You just want to rail against bats, and how you think they are still living in the dark ages because of what they eat or how they shop or where they buy their food.

    Something something Euro-centric bigotry goes here I suppose..

    Because it came from China..

    Your trolling is just pathetic.

    You, like Dutton, have gone on and on about wet markets. That is what I was addressing.

    There's being a stubborn jackarse and there's a moronic jackass. I don't need to explain which one you fall under.

    We know it originated in China because all the evidence points to a particular breed of bat found in the region:

    Whole virus genome sequences were obtained either directly from patient samples or from cultured viruses from a number of patients hospitalised with pneumonia in Wuhan, showing that the aetiological agent was a betacoronavirus belonging to a new clade in subgenus Sarbecovirus in the Orthocoronavirinae subfamily3–7. Phylogenetic studies of the new virus showed it shared about 79% nucleotide homology with SARS-CoV4–7, as well as to two SARS-like coronaviruses isolated from Chinese horseshoe bats (Rhinolophus sinicus) in Zhoushan, with which it shared 89% nucleotide homology3,5–8, and to a third SARS-like coronavirus from an Intermediate horseshoe bat (R. affinis), with which it shared 96% nucleotide homology4,9. Based on established practice, the new virus was named SARS-CoV-2 by the Coronavirus Study Group of the International Committee for the Taxonomy of Viruses10, and the disease it causes as COVID-19 by WHO11.​


    Now, unless you have actual scientific proof that disproves what is currently known, show it. Otherwise I'm shutting this thread down and shifting it as it is nothing but conspiracy laden drivel and you going off on tangents and basically posting rubbish.

    By hiding it?

    Once this is over, we can analyse what could have been done differently.

    And this is why you are such a crappy troll.

    You keep posting hypotheticals, when a few sentences prior, you were alluding to this originating from outside of China. You crap on about hypothetical and "if" and then treat it as fact without any evidence whatsoever.

    You pull this stunt each time.

    Enough.

    Either show proof that it originated outside of China or shut up about it. No if's. No what if's.

    Of course you don't. Because you are the type of person who blows smoke up your own backside and you make up all sorts of crap and believe it's true and then you try to bypass any expectation that you actually support your arguments by carrying on about "if".

    In short, you imagine things and then try to pass it off as fact.

    I mean, morons like the right wing tried to argue that it originated in a lab or was designed in a lab. You, being you, take it one step further and start suggesting it originated outside of China and miraculously made it's way to China without causing mass infections before it all started in China.. You don't understand how mutations work or the time frame - your whole wet market rant about how it could be possible if bat pees on a civet cat and it immediately becomes a mixed virus that is suddenly dangerous to humans shows how little you understand.

    There is no speculation about which country it originated from.

    You are the only one speculating..

    My god..

    China is responsible for keeping quiet about the outbreak for too long and for not giving a true picture of how many were infected and deaths.

    They are not responsible for how this virus originated - as this virus mutated naturally.

    And the only one rambling with a paranoid bent here is you.
     
    Bells, May 9, 2020
    #79
  25. Saint

    Saint Valued Senior Member

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    they eat bats
     
    Saint, May 9, 2020
    #80
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