Courage not cowardice; balls not bluster

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Xelor, Apr 23, 2018.

  1. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Hmm. Gun deaths are about 30,000 a year. Deaths due to cars in garages are approximately zero, plus or minus 100 or so (I would bet a few cars every year fall on their owners while they are trying to do some sort of haphazard maintenance, and surely a few cars in garages every year catch fire.)

    Not much of a contest there.
     
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  3. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    14 year old childs opinion ?
     
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  5. Dr_Toad It's green! Valued Senior Member

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    This is the sort of asinine comment that willful ignorance brings to the discussion. How many guns in gun safes kill people?
     
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  7. Dr_Toad It's green! Valued Senior Member

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    So, please provide it. We're all waiting with bated breath.
     
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    None that I know of.

    Guns in public, though, kill about 30,000 people a year.
     
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    That doesn't follow, as an argument. In one direction, people who commit suicide often fail or step back on early attempts without coming to the attention of anyone;
    and people who fail and are accounted for (such as the more dramatic attempts emphasized) thereby normally come into the realm of psychiatric intervention - which reduces the rate of suicide, in several ways - in the other.

    Neither of those establishes suicidal crises as singular, once in a lifetime events. They can be, but we know they most often are not.
    It's a correlation, which has a variety of explanations - the one chosen as primary typically seems arbitrary, seldom is argued for. Americans who contemplate suicide often buy guns for the purpose, for example - you will recall the study in an earlier thread, in which California purchasers of firearms were found to be disproportionately likely to commit suicide soon after buying a firearm. That was posted here as evidence that the presence of the guns caused or led to the suicide - an odd interpretation, no?
    But:
    This is the money stat - this was also found in places (such as Australia) in which firearms were confiscated.
    Even in that there is at least one uncorrected factor, which is that non-firearm suicides are significantly undercounted in the US - countries such as Sweden that count more carefully show higher rates - and so some of the claim of no reduction, no mere change of method, is too much;

    but in general the claim that having a gun lying around sometimes leads to a distressed person killing themselves who would not, otherwise, is not only intuitively reasonable but data supported.

    That leads to the question of gun control for the purpose of reducing suicide - obviously and without further consideration along with health care reform (to handle the mental illness side) and drug law reform and social welfare stuff of various kinds, done and dusted, back to topic:

    clearly gun control for reducing suicide is going to be a tricky, nuanced, careful thing likely to have incremental benefits. The avenues for serious governmental overreach on such grounds are wide and smooth, and not trivial in their destinations. So not to be oversold. It can be done - but probably only by credible, trusted, legislation.

    None of this, in other words:
    No. A gun used for suicide is seldom in public, nor is it in its garage.
    Both the overt suicides affecting my life - distantly - were by cars in garages, btw. I know of two other confirmed car suicides, by cars not in garages, and neither was counted as a suicide officially.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
  10. Dr_Toad It's green! Valued Senior Member

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    billvon: And how many deaths per year are caused by cars in public?
     
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  11. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    billvon said:
    the pro-gun-violence lobbyists throwing thier arms up saying "you cant stop suicide" is obviousely quite wrong.

    if you wish to delve into the actual data of suicide to analise the raw statistics...
    well... start by asking yourself this question

    is suicide contagious ?
     
  12. Xelor Registered Senior Member

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    The human mind is capable of unlimited forms of insipid so-called reasoning....

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    That could be construed being an image of The Man in the Moon, but it's no such thing and it's ridiculous to construe it as such.[
     
  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Let's leave them out of this.
     
  14. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    you cant answer the question ?
     
  15. Gawdzilla Sama Valued Senior Member

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    Always with the false equivalence. Gunners never learn.
     
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  16. Dr_Toad It's green! Valued Senior Member

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    You fool, the false equivalence is on billvon. Maybe you could try to find the relevant posts in this thread before dropping your pearls of wisdom.
     
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  17. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

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    887
    no - I think the method of suicide is sometimes dependent upon the ease of access to a method, but it is not in any way the predominant deciding factor for suicidal ideation nor the action/attempt.
    ah... then perhaps you had better move to Japan?
    and take Matthew Miller, Research Associate Deborah Azrael, and colleagues at the Harvard's School of Public Health Injury Control Research Center (ICRC) with you, because they apparently didn't get the news.

    suicide is often considered as effective solutions to stressors because of societal and cultural beliefs
    when you're talking suicide as a determining factor to control anything, you first have to be conversant in suicide
    [qupte]Suicidal thoughts and behaviors (including suicide attempts and death by suicide) are commonly found at increased rates among individuals with psychiatric disorders, especially major depressive disorder, bipolar disorders, schizophrenia, PTSD, anxiety, chemical dependency, and personality disorders (e.g., antisocial and borderline). A history of a suicide attempt is the strongest predictor of future suicide attempts, as well as death by suicide. Intentional self-harm (i.e., intentional self-injury without the expressed intent to die) is also associated with long-term risk for repeated attempts as well as death by suicide.

    Psychiatric co-morbidity (greater than one psychiatric disorder present at the same time) increases risk for suicide, especially when substance abuse or depressive symptoms coexist with another psychiatric disorder or condition..



    A number of psychosocial factors are also associated with risk for suicide and suicide attempts. These include recent life events such as losses (esp. employment, careers, finances, housing, marital relationships, physical health, and a sense of a future), and chronic or long-term problems such as relationship difficulties, unemployment, and problems with the legal authorities (legal charges). Psychological states of acute or extreme distress (especially humiliation, despair, guilt and shame) are often present in association with suicidal ideation, planning and attempts. While not uniformly predictive of suicidal ideation and behavior, they are warning signs of psychological vulnerability and indicate a need for mental health evaluation to minimize immediate discomfort and to evaluate suicide risk.

    Certain physical disorders are associated with an increased risk for suicide including diseases of the central nervous system (epilepsy, tumors, Huntington’s Chorea, Alzheimer’s Disease, Multiple Sclerosis, spinal cord injuries, and traumatic brain injury), cancers (esp. head and neck), autoimmune diseases, renal disease, and HIV/AIDS. Chronic pain syndromes can contribute substantially to increased suicide risk in affected individuals.

    Patients with traumatic brain injuries may be at increased risk for suicide. In comparison to the general population TBI survivors are at increased risk for suicide ideation (Simpson and Tate, 2002), suicide attempts (Silver et al. 2001) and suicide completions (Teasdale and Engberg, 2001). TBI-related sequelae can be enduring and may include motor disturbances, sensory deficits, and psychiatric symptoms (such as depression, anxiety, psychosis, and personality changes) as well as cognitive dysfunction. These cognitive impairments include impaired attention, concentration, processing speed, memory, language and communication, problem solving, concept formation, judgment, and initiation. Another important TBI sequelae that contributes to suicidal risk is the frequent increase in impulsivity. These impairments may lead to a life-long increased suicide risk which requires constant attention.

    Although relatively rare, suicidal thoughts and behaviors are not uncommonly reported in the general population. A recent national survey (Kessler, et al., 1999) found that 13.5 % of Americans report a history of suicide ideation at some point over the lifetime, 3.9% report having made a suicide plan, and 4.6% report having attempted suicide. Among attempters, about 50% report having made a “serious” attempt. The percentages are higher for high school students asked about suicidal ideation and behavior over the preceding year: 16% report having seriously considered attempting suicide, 13% report having made a suicide plan, and 8.4% report having made an attempt during the prior 12 months (CDC, YRBS 2005). These numbers are even higher when a psychiatric disorder is present.

    Often there is a transition that takes place along the continuum from ideation to plan to attempts. 34 % of individuals who think about suicide report transitioning from seriously thinking about suicide to making a plan, and 72% of planners move from a plan to an attempt. Among those who make attempts, 60% of planned attempts occur within the first year of ideation onset and 90% of unplanned attempts (which probably represent impulsive self-injurious behaviors) occur within this time period (Kessler, et al., 1999). These findings illustrate the importance of eliciting and exploring suicidal ideation and give credence to its role in initiating and fueling the suicidal process.

    [/quote] - www.mentalhealth.va.gov/docs/Suicide_Risk_Assessment_Guide.doc

    If the only data you ever collected on automobiles were the deaths, accidents and uses in crime you would see the same type of statistical analysis by Harvard: owning a car makes you more likely to die by car.

    if that is the case then why aren't more women shooting themselves?
    Surely it's far, far easier and should rank in the top ten causes of death in women per your claims and studies above...

    see car analogy above, then actually read and learn about suicide and the barriers to treatment for mental health issues in the US


    and basic training in firearms with mild proficiency can make an 80 year old woman capable of repelling the attack of a youthful offender between 18 & 30

    note: I am not claiming willingness or proficiency, only that she is capable
     
  18. Gawdzilla Sama Valued Senior Member

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    You fire before you aim.
     
  19. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

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    I'll leave that to you as it appears the only response you are capable of

    however, if you want to know the basis of my post, see the links to billvon above, and go here:
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr66/nvsr66_05.pdf

    https://www.jad-journal.com/article/S0165-0327(11)00149-2/abstract

    See also:
    Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (DSM-5®)

    *

    projection
     
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  20. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

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    Mental health issues are not contagious

    however, there are instances where suicidal actions and or ideation in a person can trigger hopelessness or mass delusions which can subsequently induce others who are mentally stressed into suicidal ideation.
     
  21. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

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    887
    please link your source material for this claim
     
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  22. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    I didn't make the equivalence; Sculptor did. Reading can prevent such foolish mistakes.
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    I agree. Suicidal feelings are independent of means available. Success rates are VERY dependent upon means available. Restricting suicidal people's access to guns will not make them feel less suicidal - but it will greatly reduce the odds of success, and thus greatly increase the odds that they will overcome those feelings.
    No thanks.
    And an 80 year old woman with basic firearms training is no match for someone on the street who wishes to disarm her. At which point there's another gun on the street in the hands of criminal.

    Guns are effective tools. When they are seen as a foolproof way to right wrongs and defend injustices they do far more harm than good. (True of many things - not just guns.)
    Table 18 - deaths by cause - "Firearm ........... 33,636"
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf
     

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