Counterproposal: Don't dress like a slut...

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by visceral_instinct, May 22, 2008.

  1. sniffy Banned Banned

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    I don't think what I have to say is crap. So we'll have to agree to disagree on that. As is usual in these matters anyone expressing a female perspective or arguing from that position invites the imposition of labels. Over the years I've tried many a different tack to get men generally to understand the implications and issues of they way they talk and the way they behave in respect to women. I've also done the same with women before you jump back on the bandwagon.

    So if reasoning doesn't work perhaps shock tactics will. I don't think people patrolling the streets armed to the teeth is the answer do you really? But there are an awful lot of angry people of both sexes around so we better start thinking about what we can really do about that.

    So are we there yet?
     
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  3. codanblad a love of bridges Registered Senior Member

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    i'm sorry for calling it crap, i just find it irrelevant, annoying etc.
     
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  5. sniffy Banned Banned

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    That's OK. There is much here that is irrelevant and annoying. It's a difficult subject.
     
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    (Insert title here)

    So that's on the list of precautions women should take?

    • • •​

    Um ... because she was married? You know—

    —just maybe?

    Obviously, I wouldn't, but your point is curiously removed and narrowed to focus on the present dispute, and not the actual dimensions of the anecdote in front of us.

    The implication that one's national army is made up of rapists or otherwise untrustworthy individuals, regardless of whether or not it is true, is a slap in the face of every commander who trains and oversees the brutes, as well as the kind of unpatriotic suggestion that, sixty years later, is still offensive to a tremendous portion of the civilian population.

    Doing your part for your country during wartime should not mean getting raped.
     
  8. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, in a section reserved especially for you..

    How about modifying it to be "donate to a local organization dedicated to combatting rape through education". This should, in theory, reduce one's risk by some percentage greater than zero. Not much greater, though.

    Mainly, the acquiescence was meant in a spirit of cooperation. I am fully aware of the contradiction, and even the digression. You were the one that claimed this as your "contribution" to the effort. Have a nice day...
     
  9. Gustav Banned Banned

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    12,575
    heh
    shilling for bush and co with that jingoistic phrase?

    By becoming involved. By speaking up when you hear other males stereotype women or make sexist and/or homophobic jokes and put-downs. By not conforming to the "traditional" male role as aggressor. By supporting other males who are challenging gender stereotypes. By examining your own attitudes. By supporting women in their efforts to gain equality. By refusing to support sexist media. By educating yourself through the many workshops, readings, films and events organized on campus. By talking with younger boys about these issues and encouraging their development away from control and aggression.​


    How Men Can Help

    kinda like a daddy or big brother
    wow!

    should we take a gander at what is actually involved in the above propositions?
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2008
  10. codanblad a love of bridges Registered Senior Member

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    fair enough, that was my mistake, i missed the 'married' women bit.

    i wasn't suggesting that armies are made of rapists (though some are made of criminals), just that men at war, with restricted access to women, might behave a little less appropriately. i do not know why its a slap in the face of every commander, their job is to oversee an effective combat unit, not ensure the moral integrity of every man under them.

    the point of "would you pressure her into it" wasn't irrelevant, because the risk of rape is arguably a good reason not to support the army in such a fashion. i'm not asking her to turn nazi, find another way to support them. is it unfair to deny men the eye candy just cos they're at war? this would hinge on the number of rapes occurring at such events, the gran didn't tell anyone, how many other women acted similarly? i'm not suggesting this was a great or tiny number, just noting that the answer to it is important.

    the basis for the argument was i thought sniffy was suggesting precautions are useless, when in fact perhaps she means minor precautions can be ineffective. i also think these tear jerkers, while interesting and relevant, are affecting some people's opinions more than facts are.
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    (Insert title here)

    The deeper question that invites is perhaps a digression, but is the moral integrity of the soldiers in any given combat unit irrelevant to their efficacy?

    Nonetheless, the suggestion—especially in the middle of a massive war like that—that any soldier could be a rapist reflects poorly on the entire service. Indeed, men at war might behave a little less appropriately, and not just with women. Of course, these are also the times when we as citizens and the soldiers as individuals and a unit need the absolute best performance they can muster.

    Just ... imagine World War II without USO or NAAFI girls. To support the war effort in such ways was often considered a matter of civic virtue.

    Such as? I mean, on the American side, there were victory gardens to be raised, and job openings in the workforce. And women could enter the service. But I'm not sure how that worked in England.

    Actually, it is. Eye candy is not an inalienable right, nor a mandatory privilege of armed service.

    Whether or not men deserve eye candy for being at war does not hinge on anything.

    I think you're overstating the issue in order to accommodate your dismissal. It seems to me that earlier in the discussion, certain people were making the emotional appeal that if taking precautions prevents even one rape, is it worth it? Talk about a tear-jerker.

    In the end, the obvious precaution—don't attend NAAFI dances—would have had a tremendous negative impact on the morale of the soldiers. Maybe it's just that short, attractive women shouldn't support the troops like that. Maybe the only "eye candy" the soldiers should have are stereotypical, unshaved butch dykes who can kick their asses.

    All of this, apparently, because men shouldn't have to behave themselves? Because it is too much to ask that men exercise dignity, restraint, and self-control? That respect for their fellow human beings—but it's just women, right?—is too much to ask?

    Look, separate out the sociopaths and those we might deem psychiatrically incompetent. What remains is still the vast majority of rapes, and inasmuch as these are preventable, that prevention starts and stops with the rapists.

    • • •​

    Oh, please. What happened to "i know i care more than most. definitely more than you, buddy"?

    Have at it. You won't find me pretending it's a simple or easy course.
     
  12. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    Where the fuck is so-called Deepthought?!

    Whenever you take his arguments apart, he pisses off. :X
     
  13. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    What is the magic number that makes it worth it, Tiassa?

    This whole question is kind of a moot point. Does anyone here, male or female, claim not to take at least some of the precautions mentioned in this thread?
     
  14. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah but where do you draw the line with precautions? Where is the divide between being sensible and unreasonably limiting one's freedom?
     
  15. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Very good question visceral, seriously. Overdoing things leads to hysteria.

    Although it is somewhat nebulous, we leave it up to the individual to perceive the "line" inherent in sensible. I mean, after all, that is why "sensible" is included in precautionary theory. Other applicable words include "rational", "reasonable" and "prudent".

    Again, though we can argue over it ad nauseum, it seems that we all take sensible precautions as "de facto" in daily life.
     
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Fight them until we can't

    Depends on each person: at some point, for some people, it's just not worth it. That's the whole problem with transferring the burden to the victim. If some people find it reasonable and prudent to hide away and live in fear, that seems to be fine with you. Whatever it takes to keep the burden on women, right?

    Who here will claim those precautions definitively and unfailingly prevent rapes—or even other crimes—from occurring?
     
  17. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Absolutely, we all must find this "balance" that makes sense.


    Isn't this strawman getting tired? I mean, really, the crows are roosting and raising families in his bosom by now...

    Emphasis mine, and no one is the answer.
     
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    (chortle!)

    Dude, you're the one rushing, even in the face of a clear attempt to dismiss the culpability of a rapist, to put that burden back onto women.

    So quit whining.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2008
  19. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Rushing? I'm sorry, what is the appropriate timetable here, all knowing one?

    And I love that you will use the same strawman to combat the original. The "culpability of a rapist" lies with the rapist. Period. End of story.

    The responsibility of an individual lies with the individual. Do what you can. Period. End of story.
     
  20. lepustimidus Banned Banned

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    From the post you linked:

    How does that equate to attempting to dismiss the culpability of the rapist? :shrug:
     
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Whoops

    Thank you for the note, Lepus. I've fixed the link to reflect the appropriate post.
     
  22. lepustimidus Banned Banned

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    He doesn't attempt to dismiss the culpability of the rapist there, either.
     
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Pay attention

    Pay attention, Lepus. I would do the blow-by-blow for you, except it's pretty damn simple.

    Oh, right, this is my fault. Instead of just fixing the link, I should have made the point that you're asking the wrong question.

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