Counterproposal: Don't dress like a slut...

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by visceral_instinct, May 22, 2008.

  1. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    3,535
    What a shallow read of those critical of you here. We are very aware of your, rational self interest in the choices you make about what is the center of discussion. Rather than assuming that you are coming from an altruistic place, merely disseminating the wisdom of Ayn Rand as applied to rape, we get the impression that actually you are framing the debate and focusing on women
    OUT OF SELF-INTEREST.

    And there are advantages for men to keep the focus on women and not to look at their own behavior. Sadly some men only see these advantages, rather than seeing that if they focused on the male side of the equation, it might be more challenging for them, but real change is there for everyone.

    You have concluded that the women contributers here have made the best suggestions. Well, that should support the notion that you can leave this discussion to the women, who in fact, have these discussions all the time, and focus your energies on what you can do to challenge the male culture that contributes to rape, if we are supposed to take your implied goals as the real ones - ie. the reduction of rape.

    And to entice your self interest - that male culture of rape is also hurting men: 1) by contributing to the gap and distrust between men and women 2) because it has a lot of assumptions and limitations about the men themselves that are not necessary 3) it opens the door for men to deal with their fears of inadequacy finally and in a way that is not dependent on women thinking this or that.

    I am afraid I am extremely skeptical that you have the courage to go for a deeper level of self-interest than the one that you are pursuing here.
     
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  3. Gustav Banned Banned

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    nice
    the hysteria continues unabated
    i digress further

    i had posted some stats about perceptions of crime a while back....

    The Australian Survey of Social Attitudes (AuSSA) is a survey of 4270 Australians, first carried out by the Australian National University's Centre for Social Research in 2003. One of the questions asked by AuSSA in 2003 was whether respondents believed crime had increased, decreased or stayed the same over the past two years.

    As can be seen in the chart below, belief that crime had increased either a little or a lot was most common. Comparatively few people perceived crime as having decreased in the two years leading up to the survey. Perception of crime varied across age groups. Fifty-one percent of those aged 65 and over thought that crime had increased a lot between 2001 and 2003, compared with 25 percent of those aged 18 to 34. Younger people were more likely to believe that crime had stayed the same (30% of 18-34 year olds, compared with 13% of those aged 65 and over). The proportion of people who thought crime had decreased a little or a lot was low across all age groups, showing little variation.

    These findings are at odds with actual crime trends as the overall pattern in recent years is one of decreasing crime. According to the International Crime Victimisation Survey, crime victimisation rates in Australia declined between 2000 and 2004, from 24 percent to 17 percent. In addition, recorded property crime rates declined from 2001 to 2004 for most major categories of offence (AIC 2006).

    Perception of crime trends


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    then there is the doj that claims rape rates are stable for the most part

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    other stats include

    * Since 1994, violent crime rates have declined, reaching the lowest level ever in 2005.
    *Homicide rates recently declined to levels last seen in the mid-1960s.
    * Robbery rates declined after 1994
    * Assault rates declined since 1994
    * The proportion of serious violent crimes committed by juveniles has generally declined since 1993. (link)


    furthermore...

    # 77% of rapes are committed by someone known to the person raped. (Bureau of Justice Statistics 1997) (link)


    (i hope you fucks are not getting confused) that in turn brings me to....

    that...


    ...and that. it appears that "living in fear" is actually a choice. it may stem from delusionary thought processes or simply because one has a vested interest, a political agenda to inflate figures and beat the drums of hysteria

    To put it plainly: Dworkin was a preacher of hate. Her books are full of such declarations as, "Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman." ("Patriarchy," of course, covers contemporary Western societies.) "Male sexuality, drunk on its intrinsic contempt for all life, but especially for women's lives, can run wild." "Hatred of women is a source of sexual pleasure for men in its own right."

    In Dworkin's world view, the Marquis de Sade and Jack the Ripper seem to be representative of all men (though she made an exemption for some men in her own life). Meanwhile, women who defend their right to enjoy heterosexual sex are branded "collaborators, more base than other collaborators have ever been: experiencing pleasure in their own inferiority."

    Dworkin's defenders insist that she has been unfairly maligned as equating all heterosexual sex with rape when she merely assailed male sexual dominance. Yet in her 1987 book, Intercourse, Dworkin argued that penetration itself is a form of "occupation" and "violation of female boundaries," however enthusiastically enjoyed by "the occupied person." She wrote that "intercourse remains a means or the means of physiologically making a woman inferior" and is "the pure, sterile, formal expression of men's contempt for women." "All sex is rape" is fairly accurate shorthand for theseravings. (link)


    i shall endeavor to show you how and why

    a preliminary title ...

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    Feminazi's and Faghags - Scheming, Conniving Liars


    ..all in good time tho. i have to lay the foundation for all of this first. it is a post that i had for a while now and also one where i had filled in the blanks.
    i removed my input cos you fucks will freak out. fill in your own shit if you dare.


    The Dynamics of a Fuck Session

    start the clock....
    -------------------------------------------------

    00.00 :____________________________
    00.30 :____________________________
    01.15 :____________________________


    15.00 :____________________________
    16.12 :____________________________
    17.18 :____________________________
    19.00 :____________________________
    21.22 :____________________________
    26.32 :____________________________
    34.48 :____________________________


    ---------------------------------------------------------

    who here has the balls to be brutally honest and fill in the blanks?

    the pleasure/pain/bliss/assent/sadness/coercion/blackmail/boredom/love/taunts/jealousy/happiness/joy/reward/revenge/manipulation/anger/violence..........all capable of being present in a single fuck session either implicitly or explicitly

    kinda like a she said/he said

    bah
    what would dumbfucksci know anyway
    their utopia is like a porno with safe words
    14"dicks and nonstop orgasms

    /spits

    today i found a reference of sorts at the uscs site

    A study of 477 male students, mostly 1st and 2nd year students, found 56% reported instances of non-assaultive coercion to obtain sex. Examples included: threatening to end a relationship; falsely professing love; telling lies to render her more sexually receptive. (Boeringer 1996, Violence Against Women:5) (link)


    hmm. alternate titles...

    When in Doubt, Cry Rape!

    Feeling Bored? Cry Rape!

    ??
    thoughts?

    /snicker
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2008
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  5. Gustav Banned Banned

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    uhh
    what have you offered up so far with regards to the above? links please
     
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  7. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    OK, people, finally some statistics, albeit old ones (1975), but better than nothing...


    Frederic Storaska, Executive Director of the National Organization for the Prevention of Rape and Assault (NOPRA), writing in his book, How to Say No to a Rapist - and Survive, based on his study and experience, makes this statement:

    Contrary to popular opinion, most of the time rapists and their victims aren't even strangers. Over the years, I've found that in about 35 percent of the rape cases the woman was assaulted by her own date, in the dating environment. Very few rapes of this type are reported. Most women (or men) have an emotional stake of their own in portraying their dates as acceptable, even desirable, human beings. About 35 percent of the time the rapist is someone else you know - a friend, neighbor, boss, co-worker, relative, friend of a friend - in other words, someone you thought you could trust, someone you never dreamed presented any sort of a threat to you. Rape in these cases often goes unreported, too, for a variety of reasons, including the embarrassment of innocent parties, perhaps those through whom you know the rapist. Finally, about 30 percent of the time the rapist will be a total stranger, someone the woman didn't know at all, though he may have known who she was or seen her several times prior to the attack. More rapes of this type are reported to the police than of any other kind.


    About the book, from NOPRA site:

    Mr. Storaska's book still lives on. With a publishing in 1975, there are still so many people out there in need of the information that his book, 'How to Say No to a Rapist - and Survive', can provide them. The theories and philosophies he espoused in the 60's and 70's are now being substantiated by over three decades of statistical findings. Thus there has developed a massive outpouring of interest and demand for him to rewrite and republish his rape prevention book and reproduce his movie for the new millennium. NOPRA has started to incorporate into the website many of the articles from the news, tv and more about how this book has impacted the lives of many people.


    New York Times article regarding this book, and the practical effect:

    http://www.nopra.org/rapeprevention.html



    Ok, Tiassa, and the rest of you, there it is! (or at least was in 1975)

    Your extremely small percentage of "stranger rape" is fucking 30 percent! Is that enough to be concerned about?
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2008
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,846
    This and that

    So you go from presenting evidence suggesting that rapes have declined in the age of feminism to,

    Help us with the transition.

    • • •​

    Try again, Randwolf. You've wasted enough of our time attributing your own arguments to other people.

    When you're ready to be honest, let us know.
     
  9. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    4,172

    You know, simon, you are the most pathetic of the whole lot. You completely missed the point, as usual.

    There are plenty of women who follow rational self interest, for example, oh I don't know, the originator of the whole frikkin philosophy maybe?

    What about them, did you think I was writing that post based on my personal self interest? Get a clue. At least Tiassa is not this deluded...

    IMHO, you truly are a femnazi and a misandrist.

    Obviously this idea of "rape prevention" is not unique to those of us posting on this thread. See Gustav's posts from the police department, read the title of the book in my last post, etc. WTF? Why can't you just contribute here, instead of continually bashing those of us who at least try?
     
  10. Gustav Banned Banned

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    bye!

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  11. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    When are you going to be honest, Tiassa? I know you're not this dense!

    Gustav's statistics reflect a downward trend in overall rapes, mine address the relative percentages of the types of rape.

    You actually missed that?
     
  12. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    How's that thread you suggested coming along for you? Or are you waiting for someone else to do all that work for you too? Hmmm?

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  13. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Well, what?


    Wouldn't a simple yes or know have taken less effort? You really like to type, don't you?


    Tiassa, this is the last time I am going to respond to your strawman. I am not promoting rape. Show me the evidence of this, other the mere act of my participation in this discussion. It's my understanding that you are a male, right? Why then, is it acceptable for you to participate here, since according to simon "this discussion is better left to women". Gee, I don't know, maybe because you happen to agree with them?


    Tiassa, I didn't start the thread...


    You don't get the words reasonable and rational at all do you? Totally beyond your comprehension.


    So you say. I think that remains to be seen. However, I'm pretty sure this will not stop any rapes: There is no guaranteed way to avoid sexual assault, especially not for society as a whole. Therefore, let's not try to mitigate any individual's chances, because that would only displace the assault somewhere else. Ergo, do nothing.


    Pardon my stupidity, but would you do the substition in your analogy for me? It shouldn't be difficult for one of your great intellect. Humor me.


    BTW, you guys must really be on the ropes here if you're now saying bringing in references, statistics, sources, etc. "is letting someone else do my arguing for me".

    How ludicrous is that?
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2008
  14. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Tiassa and simon? My, you are optomistic, there Gustav

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  15. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    Don't you fucking spew that utter diarrhoea at me. Women have actually been assaulted where I live.
     
  16. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    4,172
    Both men and women have been assaulted where I live as well. I can't speak for Gustav, whose post you quoted, but for me, "living in fear" refers to a state of mind. In other words, it is not an acknowledgement nor a renunciation of the fact that bad things have happened, will continue to happen, and may happen to me or my loved ones.

    However, my wife, my two daughters and I do not "choose" to live in a constant state of fear over what might happen tomorrow. We take sensible and prudent precautions, not just against assault, but all other potential crimes and dangers as well. Then we get on with it, knowing we have done the best we can...

    This is not meant to "trivialize" fear in any way. Not that anyone takes any notice of this type of disclaimer here, in fact it will probably do just the opposite, and bring on another round of attacks by the fearmongers. So be it.

    Reducing your instinctual fear is admitedly an extremely difficult task, but what alternative is there other than to try? Short of eliminating the source of the fear in the first place, of course, which if I understand correctly, according to you can not be done.
     
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,846
    When you're ready to be honest ....

    Re: #426

    Because you're not really trying.

    Let us know when you're ready to be honest.

    Re: #428

    Indeed, Gustav's statistics reflect a downward trend in overall rapes. This also coincides with a period in which feminism has gained prominence.

    Your statistics are thirty-three years old. Gustav's number, suggesting an even lower proportion of stranger rapes, is only eleven years old.

    We might infer from this that as rapes per capita have been decreasing, and rapes by stranger per capita have declined proportionately, the rise of feminism to prominence in the culture has had certain impacts on rape that go beyond mere children's chants.

    None of that, however, accounts for your hideously-botched temper tantrum featuring boldface and an exclamation point:

    What you are attributing to me in order to ask your angry question is, in fact, another one of your own inventions.

    Like I said: When you're ready to be honest, let us know.

    Re: #430

    That's what I thought.

    After witnessing and enduring so many of your distortions, it seemed a question worth asking.

    It requires only slightly more effort than breathing. The idea of enjoying typing ... probably at some point in my life.

    Your continued focus on women's burdens is your advocacy. You continue to promote an idea that you clearly know nothing about. The lack of proportionality and scale about your argument, your open refusal to close the gap in precaution theory, and your subsequent attempt to proclaim the gap closed all suggest that your argument is mere talking points with no substantial comprehension.

    The end result is that you are pushing a misogynistic response to the problem of rape while doing nothing about rape itself. There comes a point where the proposition of your ignorance no longer justifies your behavior.

    Furthermore, your attempt to denigrate and dismiss certain arguments you disagree with while utterly ignoring the context of the earlier discussion and, indeed, the topic itself, suggests questions about the integrity of either your intellectual outlook or personal character.

    You're seriously asking that question? Oh, wait. No, of course you're not:



    Seriously, Randwolf, if you can't go about this discussion in good faith, you probably shouldn't bother at all.

    That's an answer. Next time, shoot for something applicable, or at least remotely relevant.

    Are you suggesting that everyone has the same idea of what constitutes "reasonable" and "rational"? Quite clearly, I don't agree that the proposition that you are fulfilling some obligation to society by laying the burdens of other people's behavior onto women while seeking to excuse yourself from making any more productive contribution is reasonable or rational.

    You're right. Someday circumstances might come about in which there are no rapes. I can actually think of one course to achieve that goal: extinction.

    Doesn't seem a suitable solution to me. You're welcome to hope you live forever so that you can see the day and crow about how if you just wait long enough for something to happen, it finally will. And then you can shout to the open desert, "See? I told you I didn't have to do a damn thing about rapes! They stopped happening all by themselves!"

    You spend more time arguing with yourself than anyone else. 'Tis a curious phenomenon, in general, but more and more mundane each day.

    What? You already responded to it. Okay, attempted to respond. The thing about Sufi tales is that they're thematic. You cannot cling too closely to any one meaning. If you want to compare the woman to the shoe, you can, but it's not particularly useful. If you wish to compare the temptation of the thief to steal the shoes with the temptation of a rapist to commit rape, you certainly can. There is, indeed, a theological debate about whether one participates in another's sin by providing the opportunity for sin. And we can take all the precautions we want against other people's sins, but sin will still occur. And it will still find us, in one form or another.

    For instance, how many women do you actually know?

    Try this: every sixth individual woman you encounter tomorrow—speak to in person, talk to on the phone, get an e-mail from, walk past on the street, see driving in traffic, and so on—as you go about your day, make a mental note in your mind. That woman represents a rape survivor.

    Now if you're lucky enough that no woman of your acquaintance has been raped, the reality is that they probably just haven't said anything to you about it.

    Some of us have been called upon directly by rape survivors, and some by circumstance of proximity. What is your Randian motivation for giving a damn in the first place? Has your "property" been violated?

    So pat yourself on the back for telling women what they should do, and rape survivors what they should have done. Statistically, as a male, I have a 3% chance of being sexually assaulted in my life, and it seems that number gets lower as I get older.

    My daughter faces a 16-33% chance, depending on whose statistics you use.

    It's really easy for men to say what women should have done. Apparently, it's too much to ask of some that they should think more about what men shouldn't do.

    You used quotation marks, suggesting you were, well, quoting someone. I searched for the term "arguing for" and did not find it on page twenty-one or twenty-two.

    What the hell are you talking about, then?

    You would appear to be tilting windmills at this point. And that, while ludicrous in a literary context, has become a fairly common sight around here.

    • • •​

    The Coalition Educating About Sexual Endangerment (CEASE; ye gads, did they have to work for that acronym!) at Ohio University actually has a web page on "What's a real man?"

    And it goes on ....

    Maybe when we're eighteen, we need to be reminded of this absolute pabulum, but that in itself is a bit scary at least. Why isn't this sort of stuff already clear to us when we arrive at "manhood"?

    Of course, once we reach our manly manhood, the solution is just that women should take better care to not accidentally turn us on. Convenient, eh?

    • • •​

    In truth, though, VI, living in fear is a choice. Indeed, as Randwolf states in his response to you, it is a state of mind.

    The thing that I don't understand, though, is the amount of energy some people put into making the point that women should live in fear.

    It really does wreck the disclaimer that someone is not encouraging or advocating rape. If you look closely, some of these people are actually trying defend themselves by pointing out that they've never explicitly said a certain thing. Given some of the wild "interpretations" of the discussion we've endured, it seems absolutely ridiculous that the whole "I never explicitly said ..." argument even comes up.

    But that's all they've got.

    The reality is that the only approach they can countenance is to put the burden on women. Otherwise, they might have to look in the mirror.
    ______________________

    Notes:

    Coalition Educating About Sexual Endangerment. "What's a Real Man?" Viewed June 8, 2008. http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~ad361896/anne/cease/realman.html
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2008
  18. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    4,172

    Gosh, you're right. I missed one of Gustav's statistics, namely:

    # 77% of rapes are committed by someone known to the person raped. (Bureau of Justice Statistics 1997)

    implying of course that only 23% are commited by strangers not 30% as it was 30 years ago. This, of course proves your point, I mean after all, if only a little more than one in five rapes are perpetrated by strangers, it is not worth discussing. Who is trivializing rape now? Do you know how ludicrous this is?

    Let me see if you will answer a direct yes or no question, Tiassa:
    Do you feel that 23% of rapes is statistically insignificant?

    Also, perhaps the decrease from 30% to 23% may correlate with an increase in women taking self defense classes? A better awareness of how and why rapes happen? I mean 30 years ago, many people felt you shouldn't even mention the word rape in mixed company. Now there are tons of books, educational courses, etc. addressing the subject and its prevention

    And what was your answer to that question? I thought so...


    Actually I was referring to your statement / question:

    "The problem with that sentence is that the rapist could say the same thing. You know, like the pedophile teaching a child how to "love"?"

    In your opinion is "[a] pedophile teaching a child how to 'love'" a reasonable assertion? Please, please, Tiassa, just a yes or no...


    I'm sorry, what was it you had contributed as an idea to reduce / eliminate rape? Links please?


    Productive, as usual....


    I wasn't asking for a list of ways to interpret it, but rather only one - yours. What was it you were intending to convey?


    No, Tiassa, I'm not that lucky.


    Well, you digress somewhat, but I will try to answer you in the most honest manner possible, something that you are so fond of asking me to do, which of course implies that I haven't been, etc., etc.

    Anyway, it actually has to do with my motivation to be on SF period. I have a personality quirk (one of many, as you would no doubt be willing to attest to). I'm passionate about logic. Now that may seem like a contradiction, but it is the best I can do at explaining. Prior to registering here, I had been lurking primarily in the math and science subforums for a few weeks. Trying to learn something new, ya know?

    I enjoyed reading the debates, as debating is something that has intrigued me since my high school days. So, finally I decided to join. At this point I started looking for an interesting (and contentious, I might add) thread to participate in. I pulled up the New Posts search, and started hunting. Now here is where I will give you another opportunity to pull the sexist card again, if you want. I noticed the title of this thread, and thought "WTH is that about"? So I pulled it up and read it from the beginning, not knowing, mind you, the previous history here on the topic.

    Now, to come to the point. I noticed what I considered to be an illogical inconsistency, and thought I would throw my two cents in. I think my first post started "Come on people, if you stop and think, there are some valid points here", or something to that affect.

    I had absolutely no idea what I was walking into.

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    Now Randian or not, I have as much intellectual interest in abstract topics as the next person, and contrary to what you apparently think, I do feel very sad for the victims of sexual assault. I'm not trying to say I understand or that I can empathize, because I can't. The closest personal experience I had ocurred when I was maybe ten, and I managed to escape by running away before anything at all actually happened. So that is not the reason for my posting here. Of course, I know women who have been raped, and that probably contributed in a way to my selection of this topic, but that still is not the primary motivation.

    To me, and without comparing a woman to a car or a bank in any way, if this topic had been about "It is impossible to reduce the chances of car theft or bank robbery through sensible and prudent precautions", I would have dived in just as I have here. Now, obviously, property crimes do not have the emotional impact of sexual assaults, so the arguments would not be poarized as much.

    Bottom line: joined to debate, the title caught my eye, I read the posts, spotted what I considered (right or wrong) to be fallacies, put up a post, got friggin ambushed out of left field (from my point of view) and dug my heels in.

    Honest enough for you?

    Upon a more careful reading of "Try again, Randwolf. You've wasted enough of our time attributing your own arguments to other people" (post 425), I suppose it could be interpreted in a slightly different manner than I did. What did you mean by this?


    Maybe we do, I honestly don't know. But this would actually be a means of perhaps improving the status quo, and if this thread expands in the direction simon keeps trying to take it, or a new thread is started, this would seem to be a valid suggestion for the topic of "What can men do stop rape, besides tell women what to do?". Now you may ask why I don't go start it, and to be honest, I don't really have the desire, but probably not for the reason you think. First of all, at this point, I can barely keep up with this thread, and my disposable time is about to get cut in half shortly. Rest assured though, if and when the thread does start, and if and when I start seeing irrational or unreasonable suggestions, or logical fallicies, I'll be there with a vengeance in what time I do have.


    Oh thank God, I have reached the end of another reply to Tiassa

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  19. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    I said if the atruistic motives of yours are to be taken seriously.
    Me, I am doing precisely what I suggested, calling men on their behavior. I also contributed to what you were claiming to be doing by making my suggestions to women. I am doing my work. What are you doing? Helping women? Give me a break. It's good that you are a Randist we don't have to take these altruistic claims seriously.
     
  20. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,535
    I never said there were not.

    yes, clearly I think that. I think it serves a psychological agenda of yours and I have made this very clear.

    1) I did contribute, go back and read it. 2) I also mentioned that it was not unique. Several times. I think I might have been the first to mention that there are plenty of people trying to work out ways to reduce rape by informing women about what they can do. Many of them women.

    If you can't manage to read my posts, you could be rational and not assume you are in a position to be condescending about them.
     
  21. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    What Gustav, you are really unware of the programs, classes and shelters that have been started up by women to protect women from violence including rape.
    You need me to provide links so that you will believe this?

    Come on, don't insult your own intelligence.
     
  22. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,535
    Gustav,

    I mentioned this pages ago and yet somehow fucks like me are supposed to be confused by statistics that back up what we say.

    I then made suggestions to women GIVEN THE FACT THAT most rapes are committed by men they know.

    Randwolf doesn't read my posts so he whines about me not contributing.

    You think the statistic will confuse me.

    That is confusing, but not the statistic.

    I'm sorry Gustav. You seem like a cranky little bastard - which to me is at worst neutral and generally a compliment. And cranky little bastards know that what people claim they are doing is often not what they are really doing. Sure, I could pretend that Randwolf, mr. selfinterest, just wants to have a discussion of how women can protect themselves from rape.

    "If we can just prevent one rape, would that be......."

    Marvelous.

    But I don't take it at face value. Nevertheless I responded to the call for suggestions.

    Now your confusing post seems to be suggesting that when women are bored they cry rape.

    That little gem will add to the culture of rape.

    Men nod. Yeah, that bitch probably wasn't raped. She just wants his balls cause he dumped her. And so there is less belief on the non-rapist men's side when women say they are raped.

    I don't need another thread. I can sit right here in your women hating crap and do exactly the primary thing men who want to end rape can do, call men on their shit.

    If I have misunderstood your position Gustav, my apologies. I find your presentation on the oblique side.

    I mean, FAGHAGS, for example. I am not really sure what battle you are fighting.
     
  23. codanblad a love of bridges Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,397
    tiassa you accused randwolf of promoting rape, that's a bit much i think. i know that at least i am operating under the assumption that no matter how many reasons a person might have to rape someone, its never ok, therefore in no way can a person be condoning rape by discussing these reasons.
     

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