could this work (peer review?)

Discussion in 'Chemistry' started by Bishadi, Jun 19, 2009.

  1. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    here is a fun one for anyone on the globe to try;

    it seems perhaps the 'baghdad batteries' were not so tough to figure out (just a few weeks back);

    perhaps they are for light - electrolysis of water; to H and O which can be burned; and at the depths of the tombs with low oxygen, its a perfect fit and controllable. Then when mixed with Na, K, etc..... many (flavors) colors.

    anyone can try it just make sure the surface area of the + - into the water (electrolysis) are larger than the surface area of the total anode (DC)

    use OJ for your elctrolyte; call it free energy in a sense of egyptian days
    (they didn't have the wood supplies in the desert)


    i tink it's the correct use of the batteries as well now anyone can see and perhaps 'understand' the basics of 'how it works'.....

    (archeologists have found thousands of them)...

    3 questions;

    could it work?

    and has anyone ever seen the rendition before?

    is THIS publishing?

    (cool post count; one for ..........me)
     
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  3. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,221
    I doubt very much that you could make enough gas to produce any substantial light without a ridiculously huge array of them. They just don't generate enough current. I don't recall how much voltage they produce, but it might not have been enough for electrolysis.

    Also, you are assuming they are batteries in the first place. It's not at all clear that they were.
     
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  5. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    on the tomb walls there is a carving of i think 5 in series


    how much current does a plant use for transpiration?

    i am certain as anodes and cathodes of copper and iron have few applications together even in the 21st century

    perhaps look over a few

    http://images.google.com/images?hl=...&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title

    maybe even watch a few videos

    http://video.google.com/videosearch...sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#
     
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  7. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,221
    Putting 5 in series wouldn't help produce more current; you would need many dozens or even hundreds in parallel.
    What does transpiration have to do with electrolysis?
     
  8. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    i saw the carving, not the schematics

    i see evidence of the battery and not a solution for them on the earth

    i like to find answers

    perhaps look up the P680 to learn about what is occuring


    please stick with the thread title
     
  9. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    So Bishadi, how do you account for the fact that the copper component is completely encased in bitumen - without the copper being exposed to the vinegar/grapejuice/whatever, there can be no electrical current.

    In other words, they don't work as batteries unless you modify the design.

    Not to mention what a pain it would to top up the batteries (bitumen being excelent for hermetically sealing things).

    Not to mention the fact that these artifacts are virtually identical to storage jars used elsewhere,a nd were exposed to the elements, accounting for the traces of acidic organic residue.
     
  10. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    perhaps wiki is wrong

    perhaps, there is more to the algae then some comprehend

    again, all a wiki set of comments

    who has the schematics as 'designed' or is the evidence just the batteries themselves and the archeologist and chemistry folks did not combine to do experiments

    i have to fill up my auto battery too

    my gas tank.... etc.....

    Again..... as this is the third item you simply borrowed from wiki

    an now number 4.....

    that might be the grape juice or even frozen concentrated OJ.......

    Storage with an iron cork is kind of funny. The configuration and the 'accounting for the traces of acidic organic residue' are not by accident.

    not to mention the carvings on the walls share the use for 'light'

    i was asking if the UNIQUE ideas is possible.

    are you suggesting, it is not!


    Thanks for the 'bitumen' opening as i was aware of it but not of the composition of the material until this am.




    So could the electrolysis of water offer a method of producing light?

    Could the batteries provide the juice?

    Has anyone ever seen this idea before?
     
  11. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    This information is available on Wiki?

    Interesting.
     
  12. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
  13. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    One of the points that you miss, Bishadi, is that the working models all look like this:

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Where the schematics of what was found, look like this:

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    The 'working models' have the iron exposed to the acidic liquid, but the original Baghdad batteries have the iron isolated from the acidic liquid.

    In order for an elctrochemical reaction to occur, both electrodes MUST be exposed to the elctrolyte, otherwise the electrical circuit can not complete.

    You'll also notice that they've added in a ground wire in one of the images above (the second one), and yet, nowhere is there any mention of any such thing.
     
  14. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    That's nice, but it doesn't actually prove anything.

    I have, there is precisely zero hard evidence that these things were anything other than jars for storing papyri (or the equivalent).

    The Iron rod sticking out the top gives you something handy to pull on when you want to unseal the jar in the future.

    The Bitumen provides a hermetic to stop the papyri from decaying.

    The copper layer, and the copper disc give you something to wrap the papyri around, that isn't going to stain it like Iron would, or like Bitumen would.
     
  15. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    so we see the drawing of what was found versus the schematic of the creating alchemist to comprehend 'HIS' intent.

    if no one knows what they were for, then there is no 'working model'

    it is the model of the describing parties and how 'they' said it works and what 'they' have to work from

    IN modern technology anyone can see the reasoning but have you tried adding other elements to the electrolyte to see if perhaps the bitumen will offer additional catalyctic properties?


    eg...... you share these pictures but in your other post share that perhaps, they were just for storage rather than any battery usage.

    i ask you a clear question; are these for electrical purposes in your eyes; yes or no!

    how many 'thousands' have you checked on?

    are you just not interested in answering the questions in the OP?

    basically, you are discounting items just because i posted
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2009
  16. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    i know
    and how many of them jars carried papyri?

    what a waste of ore and manpower, just for a "handle" 2000 yrs ago (that one is stupid)

    you could be right but there are many folks who used the basic configuaration

    or even

    so anyone can see the variety of ideas

    can you see a potential being created chemically, that could be used for the electrolysis of water; to burn for light?


    is it possible?
     
  17. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    This is nonsensical at best.

    We have speculation based on the metals that were used, that ignores the fact that half of the circuit is isolated from the electrolyte.

    This makes no sense in relation to the quoted portion of text.

    Bitumen is an electrical insulator. Bitumen is a naturally occuring complex mixture of organic molecules, including PAH's.

    Correct, to demonstrate how the setup required to generate an electrical current is fundamentally different to what was actually found.

    The setups that generate electricity (that I have seen) have no copper disc on the end of them, and the soldered copper tube isn't sealed with Bitumen.

    And I answer no, although I can see the potential, and why people might think they were used in this fashion, I don't think that the bulk of the evidence supports this interpretation.

    There aren't thousands to check on, there are less than twenty in existance, and there is not one single report of wires having been found with any of them.

    Incorrect assumption.
     
  18. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    None, because the jars had been exposed to the elements, allowing them to rot (accounting for the traces of acidic organic residue inside them).

    Although, if you read your own sources (wikipedia in this case) you'd see that they're also widely aknowledged to be similar in design to seulcian scroll jars.

    The entire interpretation of them being batteries rests on fundamental changes to the design of what was found.

    Sacred metal, or precious metal to protect a sacred scroll?
    Are you so sure it's a stupid idea?

    No, if you look in detail, I am almost 100% sure that they would not have sealed the copper with bitumen, or included the copper disc at the end.

    Not using that design as it was found, no, I find it highly improbable.
     
  19. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,221
    Look, you asked for people's opinions and I gave you mine. I don't think that these things could produce enough voltage or current to perform electrolysis fast enough to run a hydrogen-burning light, unless you had a ridiculously huge bank of them. Also, it does not seem at all clear to me that these things actually were batteries, since (as was already pointed out) they could not have worked as batteries without modifying the design of what was actually found. So it seems to me that you have come up with an implausible use for a battery that probably wasn't even a battery in the first place. I'm not saying that I'm certain you're wrong, I'm just saying it seems very unlikely to me that you're correct.
    P680 has a potential of around 1.2-1.4 volts. I think the best voltage you could get from an iron/copper couple is about .9 volts, which isn't enough to do electrolysis.
     
  20. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    that drawing you posted is not the 'schematic' by the creators of the jars

    perhaps to them it wasn't an electrolyte, perhaps it was the magic juice of the gods (so all rules of chemistry would not apply)

    perhaps them old folks liked it and used it for the advance alchemist

    sure is a cool way to side track the grid

    perhaps the idea was sealed for people of today to learn how to make light without the need of Edison

    OK.......... you point is now clear

    perhaps now others can post their opinion or even make the unit for fun (and let the light shine)

    i may be wrong but i thought i read something that said over 20,000 have been found. (i could be wrong)

    that is what i say about your "iron handle"

    not to mention the possibiliy that the configuration is an accident, when with the basic setup anyone can produce a potential in their garage

    basically, i may be wrong but i didn' task that

    i asked if it was possible to use the setup to make light

    have you tested it?

    is it possible?

    has anyone ever posted or presented that idea, that you ever heard of?

    (in each question, they require practical application to verify)
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2009
  21. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    so without evidence you are posting an assumption, right?

    shape? perhaps.....

    but that is just an assumption at best; (such as your idea; no wires no batteries)

    nope

    it rest on experimental evidence

    perhaps they knew something you and i don't! (i can go with possibilities)

    yep!

    Just to smelt the ore is a waste, especially when no residual of papyri is within to verify the idea.

    eg..... no iron rods in the dead sea scroll jars and they are supposed to be of the period, of sacred scrolls and did not just wither away within the jars leaving no evidence.

    have you run any tests on the configuaration? Personally?

    then you 100% sure is moot and a 'less than' quality claim


    well at least that comment is no 100%
     
  22. Bishadi Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,745
    and that is what the thread is for

    as when each item is posted i will answer and offer conversation to the opinion as well
    that is what tinkering is good for, to run a few scenarios

    the basics already works but the volume is what i questioned too

    the bitumen may be adding an additional catalyst with the appropriate electrolye (that is left to tinkering; experimenting)

    here is a site that shares how building them is easy

    http://www.instructables.com/id/Building_a_quotBaghdad_Batteryquot/

    and that is a structure of photosystems (the 680 is the wavelength in nm)

    wrong.... the volume may be low, but the electrolysis is still occuring!
     
  23. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,221
    False. There is absolutely no way to do electrolysis on water with less than 1.23 volts. In reality it will usually need to be more than that, unless you have sophisticated catalysts to help the process out, but 1.23 is the theoretical minimum. Less than that, and there can be no electrolysis (of water, anyway).
     

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