Flash, I liked the "poop" analogy! For me, a large portion of the poop is the Biblical attitudes towards women, which exists in both the OT and the NT. We've previously covered this ground elsewhere in the Religious Debate forum. There's TONS of poop in the OT - all the garbage about stoning people for every little misstep, for example. Also, in my view, you can including sacrificing and tithing in the pile of poop. One of the reasons for sacrifice was to atone for sins, intentionally committed or otherwise. And in the OT, practically EVERYTHING was a sin! For example, accidentally touching a corpse was considered a sin that required sacrifice of a male goat if you were a king or other type of leader, a female goat or lamb if you were middle class, or if you were poor, a pigeon, dove, or some grain would suffice. Guess who stood to gain the most from these sacrifices? It was the priests, of course! "God's" portion of the sacrifice was the fat of the animal, dashed with a bit of blood on the altar, or a small portion of grain. Another reason for sacrifice was to restore a woman's "purity" after childbirth. The sacrifice in this case consisted of a burnt offering and a sin offering. What a load of dookie!! Tithing, of course, was to support the Levites and priests in charge of temple worship. More dookie. TS & Lori, As for the idea that we don't want to become Christians because we wouldn't want to give up "sinning" - there's another load! The way I see it, a "sin" is any act done by one human being that brings, or has the potential of bringing, mental, emotional and/or physical harm to another, and which could easily be prevented with a little forethought, common sense and/or self-restraint. This includes acts of negligence, as well as direct acts. Given this definition of sin - who wants to "sin"? I don't have to be a Christian to avoid "sinning", and for that matter, some of the worst "sinners" I've seen are Christians!! The idea that it's okay because they're forgiven is just another load of dookie in my book! Are they forgiven by the one(s) they've sinned against? Or is the fact that they've paid their tithes and maybe said a few "Hail Marys" enough atonement? To me, Christianity is just a way of escaping personal responsibility for one's own actions. Another reason why I wouldn't want to be a Christian is the requirement to proselytize. I know I've mentioned this a number of times before, but I really think this is the MOST annoying thing about Christians and Christianity. I wouldn't want to be part of ANY religion that required its adherents to do this. Is that so difficult to understand? ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Flash, I hope you don't mind my asking about something which Lori posted: Without debating the verbatim... Is this the Spirit of the Truth, Flash? [This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 28, 1999).]
What the hell is proselytize???? And we're all responsible for our own sin, but the definition of what is sin is where we have the problem. The difference between your religion and mine is that when I sin, I must recognize it and apologize for it. You don't. And also, as long as you're not looking into Judaism as a religion, I can not for the life of me figure out why you're bringing up OT laws about touching corpses and whatnot. I'm not a Jew, I'm a Christian. Jews missed the whole point of Christ remember? ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!" [This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 28, 1999).]
Searcher, We think oppositely... The reason I became a Christian was because God revealed the truth to me and asked me to spread the word. No, I was not "required" to do it. However, I did decide to answer God's call. As for the forgiveness of sins, be those of Christians or non-Christians, as I have explained previously, you are under a common misconception as to what it takes... either that, or you DO "know" and you are intentionally attempting to minimize repentance and forgiveness for some reason...??? Do you honestly believe that "saying" you are sorry and "saying" a couple of "Hail Mary's" is all that it takes? Or, is this a mockery?
Lori, Ohhhh..I am soooooo busted *tears* God..please save my poor lost soul... For I am nothing but low life scum!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Guess again dear... I am not busted. You obviously misunderstood what I meant by that. I meant that is the one thing I'd never change about me..and I am not going to air it here..but you know what I mean. I was ONLY making a comment that IF the bible/god/jc was real then it wouldn't change a thing about me. I'm not bloody scared or trying to avoid facing "sin"... Better rethink your busted thing, Lori Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
You are too busted! But heaven's no, you're not a low-life scum. And it does have somewhat to do with your spirit, cause your spirit fosters and supports this particular sin, and mine identifies as a sin, so they are directly opposing. You think that's cause the Holy Spirit of God is evil and deceiving, and I know that your spirit is not of truth and is evil and deceiving, and this is just one of many examples of how I know that. Busted disgusted, can't be trusted. *sticking out tongue* Thplt! ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
oh yeah... well Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! back at ya Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I can't be trusted???? Where in the hell does that come from??????? That still doesn't mean that I am busted..hello??? Lori??? umm maybe you should read what you claimed to have "busted" me on. umm..what WAS that stuff YOU said about sin?? Let's see Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! First, you are implying everyone should buy into christianity and that we all view "sin" the same was as you/christians.. NOT! Second, that is NOT the reason for me not buying into it...and YOU KNOW it.
Flash, What I was asking WAS: Was Lori speaking in the Spirit of the Truth? In other words, have you, in essence, said things such as: ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? [This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 28, 1999).]
Flash, You've never heard a little kid sing "busted, disgusted, can't be trusted"? It's just a stupid expression. I trust you pooky. Ok, somebody give me the low-down on the wide variety of smilies I'm seeing lately. ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
Lori, Go to "POST REPLY". On the left side of the text screen, click on "Smilies Legend" and you can learn all about them. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Lori, Is it reasonable to assume that you have access to a dictionary? Or are you asking me something that goes beyond the dictionary definition of the word "proselytize"? At any rate, to proselytize is to try to convert others to your beliefs or opinions. I suppose that by discussing our beliefs we are all proselytizing, to some extent. But only Christians threaten everyone else with hellfire and damnation if they don't convert. That is terribly annoying!! Who says that I don't need to apologize for what I believe is sin, according to my own beliefs? That simply isn't true. If I have hurt someone else, it is in the best interests of the other party, as well as my myself, if I recognize it and apologize for it. Now, if I commit what might be considered a sin by another religion - let's say Judaism, for example - if it's not a sin by my own reckoning, I certainly feel no need to apologize for anything beyond having inadvertently offended someone else. As a Christian, you can't entirely disregard the OT, can you? That's where you'll find the 10 commandments, after all. Or do you only disregard the parts you don't like? By the way, Jesus was a Jew. In any case, there was plenty of what I consider to be "dookie" in the NT as well. ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
TS, I honestly believe that this is what Catholics believe. Oh, and I did mention tithing, as well. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! For what it's worth, I also honestly believe that the Catholic Church itself makes a mockery of what Christ taught. It isn't my intention here to offend Catholics, although I do realize that this statement is offensive to them. I'm sorry, but there's no way I can say what I truly feel about the Catholic belief system without offending someone. For other Christian faiths, it is a little different, but still - Christ is the one paying for the sins of the believers in the end. That's just not my idea of personal responsibility, that's all. ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Unfortunately you and many others will get an education as to what personal responsibility for sin really is here soon enough. That's why we "shove our religion down everybody's throat", as many have so eloquently put it, because we care about you, and do not want you to suffer. Isn't that just awful of us? And Jesus died for YOUR sins as well, you are just too proud to accept His grace and forgiveness. Sorry about asking for the definition. I'm at work in an accounting office. We use calculators, but have no use for dictionaries. I could have looked it up on-line, but I didn't realize that it would put you out so much to just tell me what it was. Sorry again. ------------------ "ET phone home!" "Uh, hello Satan?" "Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!" [This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 28, 1999).] [This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 28, 1999).]
Searcher, I find your reasoning in this matter to be contradictory in that you minimize what you call the "Christian" process of repentance and forgiveness due to the additional fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our salvation? And, if I understand you correctly, here is your idea of how your "sins" are forgiven (that is, IF you will even admit that you have sinned, according to your own standards): Well, Searcher... In addition to taking personal responsibility, in addition to apologizing to the other party, a "Christian" (one who lives by Christ's example) must ALSO apologize to God for having offended God, with an honesty of heart (and believe me, God, above all others, will know if you are sincere), AND must perform an act of contrition AND must promise to God to avoid sin in the future, with the help of Jesus Christ who died so that ALL sins can be forgiven. I could be wrong, but, although I've heard about tithings in certain religious sects, I would not have associated it with the Catholic Church... Either way, however, I don't belong to a church where I am asked to help support the congregation. If, however, that is an ADDITIONAL condition for forgiveness in certain congregations and they use the proceeds to help others, then, hey, more power to 'em!!! Really, I find these so-called "Christian" ways much more conducive to repentance and forgiveness than simply acknowledging sin (maybe) by one's own standards and simply apologizing to the other person, don't you???
TS, For more information regarding the Catholic position on tithing, please go to the following webpage: http://www.saint-mike.org/Library/Rule/Excerpts/Principles_Tithing.html As for what they generally do with that money, I believe that has already been covered (although I don't recall right now whether it was earlier in this thread or in another one). TS, do you attend any church at all? I have never been to a church that didn't emphasize the importance of tithing. I should add that one should also "atone" for one's "sins" as much as possible. For example, if, due to carelessness or negligence on your part, you break something that belongs to someone else, you should pay for it if at all possible, or ask what you can do to help make it up to them if the object was irreplaceable. I don't mean to imply that acknowledging your "sins" and saying you're sorry is all there is to it according to my beliefs. But the apology, repayment and "act of contrition" is to the person against whom I have "sinned" - not some church or priest or someone else's god. And I'm not claiming that I've never "sinned" in my own estimation. I don't mean to minimize the horror of someone hanging on a cross for 3 days and being tortured to death - for any reason!! Particularly not for something that I, or anyone else, might have done! I might add, though, that supposedly this was the same penalty just for stealing back in those days! I have my doubts that any being who could qualify as "Master of the Universe" would have required this of anyone, much less his own son who was entirely blameless! It just doesn't make any sense to me. ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Lori, No problem, Lori. I really wasn't sure if you were truly asking for the definition or if you were making another point. I addressed both, just in case. ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Searcher, It's been a long day on here for me and I'm going to sign off for a while. I will continue to make sense of our discussion when I return. In the meantime, you might want to think about it this way... Jesus Christ IS God in the flesh and we are God's children... How much do you love your children, Searcher? Do you love them so much that you would give YOUR life so that they might be saved?
TS, If that's what it took, yes. I simply cannot understand (in the case of Jesus dying on the cross) why such a thing would be necessary. This hardly promotes what I would consider to be spiritual growth for those who escape personal responsibility by "pleading the blood" (sorry - I can't see it any other way). I also don't understand the OT practice of blood sacrifice - it doesn't make any sense whatsoever!! The animal sacrificed is the one paying for the sins of the one offering the sacrifice!! How very convenient (but not for the one sacrificed, of course)! The death of Jesus is symbolically the same thing, and I just don't buy it! ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
Just to tack onto my earlier post to TS regarding what the Catholic Church generally prefers to do with the money they get from tithing and offerings, the thread where we had previously discussed that issue was entitled, "The Pope and the Pauper", and was started by Oxygen. ------------------ www.indigenousrocks.com
