The South had every right to break up. Wasn't it the Union trying to force Federal laws on the Southern states? State's rights
What's wrong with wearing a Nazi flag..? Edit: Wait, don't answer that. Answer this. Why would you ban wearing a Nazi flag?
What the fuck is with your conflicting views? Certain things the states can do, and other things the Federal government can do. The US Postal Services' offices were taken over by the confederate states. That's reason enough, is it not? Once they gained control of all the Federal property the war ended. Even though I think it ended before that..
Wow, I think that for the first and probably only time, Norsefire and I are actually in agreement with something! Amazing, purely amazing. lol Miracles do happen Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Of course I believe in unity and centralization, but only in the general aspect; as for social structures, they should pertain to their local areas.
Legal unity? Unity is through blood and will; for the same goals and same causes. Laws are simply in place for comfort.
Everyone who has "pure blood" has the same goals, causes, and will? Do you not realize how fucking insane this sounds?
They should have the same goals and will; all can enjoy their individual lives while working for a common cause. This is the road to true peace and stability.
I want to put stickers up all over Prince William County, Virginia: "Keep the Mexicans, deport the Rednecks."
This is not a compelling argument in favor of the confederate flag. Let's imagine, arguendo, that you are right and the South did bad things, but the North did even worse things a hundred years later. Unless you are arguing that doing something wrong is okay if the other side has done other things wrong....that's called "two wrongs make a right." So the flag is a symbol of the wrongful acts committed by the Confederates, converted to a "righteous" action by virtue of this principle you espouse. I think you can see what I am unmoved in my position. The war at the start was not about the blacks, it was about the Southern States seceding, seizing federal property (forts, naval ports and other real property, warships, arms and other materiel), and firing on the U.S. military. Guess what, if the state of South Carolina decided to open fire on Naval Weapons Station at Charleston tomorrow with an eye towards seizing it and its assets, the federal government's response would not be to ignore the situation and hope they stop. I would suggest that any American, including any South Carolinian, who did not side with the military personnel at that station who found themselves under fire unprovoked, is not a very good American. Anyone who proudly held aloft the symbol of the State in those circumstances (which we can consider to be a "hypothetical flag") would be simply displaying their sympathy for the treason, if not their personal treason. I view the stars and bars and no better, in fact, given the nature, degree and commitment of the Confederates to their treason over the course of 5 years, a damn site worse, than I would the hypothetical flag above. Bad though it is, the hypothetical involved firing on a single military base, and not necessarily killing anyone. The confederates went a lot further. You are free to believe whatever you like, but I have never argued that it was about African-Americans. To me, it's not. The fact is, to be sure, that the secession was precipitated by Lincoln's election and the fear of how a Republican might deal with the slavery issue (both in the south and more importantly in the new territories opening up because of how that affected the balance of power of the states in the government), it's also true that the abolitionist movement was gaining strength in the North and reviled in the South. That said, the start of the war was not about slavery as such. So, in effect, the "political correctness" you see in my posts must be based on my dislike of thieves and traitors. If it's politically correct to bash them, then color me politically correct.
Pandaemoni, That being said, no Flag, Standard, or Rallying Point should ever be Flown again, if you want to go through history, there is not a symbol that has not been tarnished by the actions of it's bearers. If any Flag should be condemned it is the National Flags of the Confederacy, they were the Symbols of the Government and the Government that supported slavery. The Battle Flag was a military symbol, that flew over and was supported by southern Whites and Blacks alike. The integration of the Southern Army's was a reality from First Battle of Manassas/Bull Run to the end of the war, and the Blacks that served did it in integrated units, not Colored Troop Regiments as in the North. 1. The "Richmond Howitzers" were partially manned by black militiamen. They saw action at 1st Manassas (or 1st Battle of Bull Run) where they operated battery no. 2. In addition two black "regiments", one free and one slave, participated in the battle on behalf of the South. "Many colored people were killed in the action", recorded John Parker, a former slave. 2. At least one Black Confederate was a non-commissioned officer. James Washington, Co. D 35th Texas Cavalry, Confederate States Army, became it's 3rd Sergeant. Higher ranking black commissioned officers served in militia units, but this was on the State militia level (Louisiana)and not in the regular C.S. Army. 3. Free black musicians, cooks, soldiers and teamsters earned the same pay as white confederate privates. This was not the case in the Union army where blacks did not receive equal pay. At the Confederate Buffalo Forge in Rockbridge County, Virginia, skilled black workers "earned on average three times the wages of white Confederate soldiers and more than most Confederate army officers ($350- $600 a year). 4. Dr. Lewis Steiner, Chief Inspector of the United States Sanitary Commission while observing Gen. "Stonewall" Jackson's occupation of Frederick, Maryland, in 1862: "Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc.....and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army." 5. Frederick Douglas reported, "There are at the present moment many Colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but real soldiers, having musket on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down any loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the rebels." 9. Recently the National Park Service, with a recent discovery, recognized that blacks were asked to help defend the city of Petersburg, Virginia and were offered their freedom if they did so. Regardless of their official classification, black Americans performed support functions that in today's army many would be classified as official military service. The successes of white Confederate troops in battle, could only have been achieved with the support these loyal black Southerners. 10. Confederate General John B. Gordon (Army of Northern Virginia) reported that all of his troops were in favor of Colored troops and that it's adoption would have "greatly encouraged the army". Gen. Lee was anxious to receive regiments of black soldiers. The Richmond Sentinel reported on 24 Mar 1864, "None will deny that our servants are more worthy of respect than the motley hordes which come against us." "Bad faith [to black Confederates] must be avoided as an indelible dishonor." 11. In March 1865, Judah P. Benjamin, Confederate Secretary Of State, promised freedom for blacks who served from the State of Virginia. Authority for this was finally received from the State of Virginia and on April 1st 1865, $100 bounties were offered to black soldiers. Benjamin exclaimed, "Let us say to every Negro who wants to go into the ranks, go and fight, and you are free Fight for your masters and you shall have your freedom." Confederate Officers were ordered to treat them humanely and protect them from "injustice and oppression". 12. A quota was set for 300,000 black soldiers for the Confederate States Colored Troops. 83% of Richmond's male slave population volunteered for duty. A special ball was held in Richmond to raise money for uniforms for these men. Before Richmond fell, black Confederates in gray uniforms drilled in the streets. Due to the war ending, it is believed only companies or squads of these troops ever saw any action. Many more black soldiers fought for the North, but that difference was simply a difference because the North instituted this progressive policy more sooner than the more conservative South. Black soldiers from both sides received discrimination from whites who opposed the concept . 13. Union General U.S. Grant in Feb 1865, ordered the capture of "all the Negro men before the enemy can put them in their ranks." Frederick Douglass warned Lincoln that unless slaves were guaranteed freedom (those in Union controlled areas were still slaves) and land bounties, "they would take up arms for the rebels". 14. On April 4, 1865 (Amelia County, VA), a Confederate supply train was exclusively manned and guarded by black Infantry. When attacked by Federal Cavalry, they stood their ground and fought off the charge, but on the second charge they were overwhelmed. These soldiers are believed to be from "Major Turner's" Confederate command. 15. A Black Confederate, George _____, when captured by Federals was bribed to desert to the other side. He defiantly spoke, "Sir, you want me to desert, and I ain't no deserter. Down South, deserters disgrace their families and I am never going to do that." 16. Former slave, Horace King, accumulated great wealth as a contractor to the Confederate Navy. He was also an expert engineer and became known as the "Bridge builder of the Confederacy." One of his bridges was burned in a Yankee raid. His home was pillaged by Union troops, as his wife pleaded for mercy. 17. As of Feb. 1865 1,150 black seamen served in the Confederate Navy. One of these was among the last Confederates to surrender, aboard the CSS Shenandoah, six months after the war ended. This surrender took place in England. 18. Nearly 180,000 Black Southerners, from Virginia alone, provided logistical support for the Confederate military. Many were highly skilled workers. These included a wide range of jobs: nurses, military engineers, teamsters, ordnance department workers, brakemen, firemen, harness makers, blacksmiths, wagonmakers, boatmen, mechanics, wheelwrights, etc. In the 1920'S Confederate pensions were finally allowed to some of those workers that were still living. Many thousands more served in other Confederate States. 19. During the early 1900's, many members of the United Confederate Veterans (UCV) advocated awarding former slaves rural acreage and a home. There was hope that justice could be given those slaves that were once promised "forty acres and a mule" but never received any. In the 1913 Confederate Veteran magazine published by the UCV, it was printed that this plan "If not Democratic, it is [the] Confederate" thing to do. There was much gratitude toward former slaves, which "thousands were loyal, to the last degree", now living with total poverty of the big cities. Unfortunately, their proposal fell on deaf ears on Capitol Hill. 20. During the 50th Anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg in 1913, arrangements were made for a joint reunion of Union and Confederate veterans. The commission in charge of the event made sure they had enough accommodations for the black Union veterans, but were completely surprised when unexpected black Confederates arrived. The white Confederates immediately welcomed their old comrades, gave them one of their tents, and "saw to their every need". Nearly every Confederate reunion including those blacks that served with them, wearing the gray. 21. The first military monument in the US Capitol that honors an African-American soldier is the Confederate monument at Arlington National cemetery. The monument was designed 1914 by Moses Ezekiel, a Jewish Confederate. Who wanted to correctly portray the "racial makeup" in the Confederate Army. A black Confederate soldier is depicted marching in step with white Confederate soldiers. Also shown is one "white soldier giving his child to a black woman for protection".- source: Edward Smith, African American professor at the American University, Washington DC. 22. Black Confederate heritage is beginning to receive the attention it deserves. For instance, Terri Williams, a black journalist for the Suffolk "Virginia Pilot" newspaper, writes: "I've had to re-examine my feelings toward the [Confederate] flag started when I read a newspaper article about an elderly black man whose ancestor worked with the Confederate forces. The man spoke with pride about his family member's contribution to the cause, was photographed with the [Confederate] flag draped over his lap that's why I now have no definite stand on just what the flag symbolizes, because it no longer is their history, or my history, but our history." The Battle Flag is and should be a Honor to the Men who served in Combat, all of the Men, Black White, Brown and Red. They served that Flag in Faithful and Loyal Service, that they all believed in Free or Slave, their country, not the institution of slavery in that country.
No, it doesn't mean that at all. If that is the way you read it, then one must assume that your position of support for the flag as support for all symbols, no matter how odious the underlying subject matter on the whole, so long as it had at least one decent quality. Benedict Arnold was instrumental in the victory at Saratoga, so are you therefore in favor of awarding him medals and honors as symbols of his greatness? (I'm hoping not.) While the motivations were different, treason is defined by actions not motives, and so Arnold and the Confederates are in that respect the same. The Confederates were saved because there were just too many of them and amnesty was the only practical solution, like illegal immigrants today. We all have faults, even nations, and I am not proposing a ban on all symbols that are attached to any flawed thing no matter how small the flaw might be. However, there are certain BIG faults (like the "flaw" of being a traitor) that are in a different category. In the United States, against whom that treason was directed, you cannot expect patriots to not be offended by the concept of "noble treason" that people have been trying to float since the war ended. Had the South done something remarkable, it might even have been possible to offset that stain, in my mind. I am not opposed to balancing tests, but the supposed "nobility" of southerners was that they kept on murdering U.S. soldiers long after the war was plainly lost and they were supposedly "honorable" in the minds of their supporters. I see no honor in what they did. I acknowledge there were honorable individuals here and there, but seizing federal property and ordering people to fire on soldiers who were not posing them any threat is not it. Secession from the Union, though that declaration was only symbolic until military force was used to to back it up, was not it either. Andersonville was certainly not it. Here's a picture of a survivor: Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! If an Islamic extremist group did that to a single U.S. soldier, tell me you wouldn't denounce them. That camp was not run by politicians. There were treasonous acts committed by the governments (and their flags shouldn't be flown either) but the primary treason was not simply disagreeing with the federal government or even declaring secession, it was firing on U.S. troops to enforce that declaration. I don't deny that blacks served in the Confederate military, and they were traitors too. I have not even taken the position that it was their support of slavery or their racism that makes the symbol inappropriate. It was their TREASON that makes the symbol odious. I don't care that they loved puppies or boiled them for their stew, because that is not relevant to their treason. I also don't care whether or not they were racist; they certainly were on the whole, but it's irrelevant to their treason. I hate their battle flag for the same reason I hate the symbols of islamic terrorists. If a kid wanted to wear a symbol representing his support for al Qaeda or the beheading of Americans, I'd send him home for that too because it's the same damned thing. It is unsurprising that, if you are a member or fellow supporter of al Qaeda or other beheading islamofacist group, it seems like such a kid's display of his support for your cause is a good thing; in the same way, if you are a sympathizer with the Confederate movement, the kid's support also seems fine. If you support the target of their attacks, though, it should not.
