conciousness at supposedly non-living molecular level

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by Rick, Oct 23, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. mackmack Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    123
    atoms with a conscious? you have to prove that its conscious before anyone can take this theory seriously. but it can be possible that there is a central computer that instructions the atoms to do things that are considered intelligent.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    51,727
    I maintain consciousness is only representative of reality. It is perception, symbolic in nature, and it is the only universe we can be aware of, since we cannot perceive anything directly. Consciousness and information are identical. When we say we are conscious of an object, that means we percieve a message communicated from our senses to our brain, where an image of the object is formed.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Zephyr Humans are ONE Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,371
    Are we conscious, or do we just think we are?
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    51,727
    Same thing.
     
  8. Zephyr Humans are ONE Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,371
    A circular definition, but I'm guessing the best there is

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  9. QuantumManDaniel Registered Member

    Messages:
    5
    The thing about it is that time traveler's theory is a close description of my theory. Consciousness can be described mathematically, physically, and logically as a force. Just as real as gravity, electricity, magnetism, strong, and weak forces. Actually, consciousness is more real, as time traveler stated. It is implied by my theory and his that consciousness is a universally encompassing force which causes one "reality" out of the infinite number present in the superspace condition described in superstring theory to be percieved. The force of consciousness actually fabricates a certain reality into a state of high probability; therefore, the reality can be observed.

    This does seem a little odd and is a little hard to swallow, but we must remember that we are all scientific people here, and to deny the existence of some phenomenon without proof of its non-existence is just as foolish as supporting the existence of a phenomenon without proper evidence.

    Any other thoughts?
     
  10. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    51,727
    Consciousness is always consciousness of something. That something is information. The "force" of consciousness is therefore informed action.
     
  11. mackmack Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    123
    "I maintain consciousness is only representative of reality. It is perception, symbolic in nature, and it is the only universe we can be aware of, since we cannot perceive anything directly. Consciousness and information are identical. When we say we are conscious of an object, that means we percieve a message communicated from our senses to our brain, where an image of the object is formed."--spider

    actually his using the old recursion thing where he tries to ask the question: which cam first the chicken or the egg.

    humans are conscious not becuase of reality but because of testing out reality. a conscious is something that isn't defined but that has a recuring pattern. if something is random and it appears to be conscious then if you test it out a second or third time it won't happen. on the other hand if you test out if a human being is conscious you will find that there is a recurring pattern.
     
  12. TimeTraveler Immortalist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,023
    Thats because existence is order/reality/awareness. There is no such thing as random, random does not exist. If random exists, what prevents us from coming up with the hypothesis that R = God?

    My God Hypothesis.

    1+1 = R
    but 5 + 5 = R
    because everything + everything = R.

    R = all possible numbers, answers, problems, solutions, ideas, questions, thoughts, beliefs, energy types, forces, and R increases exponentially.

    Do you see? That's proof there is no such thing as random/R, and so the material universe must be O. O = Order.

    In a universe of order, it's all cause and effect, with G being God, the first Order in the sequence of cause and effect. Does that explain? But before there was order there was awareness to generate that order, as order is a result of awareness. The fact that atoms spin in a certain way shows that atoms have a level of awareness with other atoms, this is not the same thing as life, but it shows at least that the atom itself is not randomly spinning around, it's following "laws", and all "laws" exist because of awareness.

    You cannot have any laws, math or universal formulas, if there is no awareness to support the existence of that law. Basically the universe is self aware, just like your body is. You don't think so?
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2007
  13. TimeTraveler Immortalist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,023
    And if any mathematician types are here, we should start a forum to discuss potential equations for a God hypothesis. I actually think you can prove the existence of God in an equation. The problem is, that same equation which proves the existence of God, could be used to claim the universe is fake.

    So it depends on who reads it and how they interpet it. But do you see how you can easily come to the conclusion that existence is the most real thing in the universe? Of course God would be most real, because a fake God does not make any sense. A fake universe does not make any sense either but I suppose some people do prefer that thinking.

    In the fake universe, all realities are fake, as nothing is real, and nothing actually exists. Everything is being fake means existence itself would be fake. I personally think existence is real, more real than non-existence. And thats the basis of my hypothesis.

    I'd rather a math person translate it into math language, but my brief version above at least explains the basics.
     
  14. TimeTraveler Immortalist Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,023
    What if the self awareness force existed before there was any matter to play with? So what if that force banged matter into existence, and then created eyes so it could better control it by seeing it, and created hands too so it could touch it?

    Now you could believe this is all a mechanical process, but in order to believe that you have to somehow convince yourself that humans and other lifeforms are popping out of the assembly line. I think that idea makes no sense because of the unlimited efficiency that the universe seems to have.

    In order to have this insane amount of efficiency, it would take something more real than this here. Basically, what holds all of this together if not consciousness? Why should any of this hold together? What keeps this universe from collapsing into a state of non-existence? It seems awareness does not collapse. So you see even if the universe was the big bang in reverse and collapsing, it still would not cease to exist, it would just shrink forever, getting smaller and tighter until it's a singularity, but it would still exist which leads me to believe awareness might actually decrease/increase with size. This might be why quantum particles can do things that seem impossible on our level of size, but it seems time travel is possible at the particle level, it seems theres actually more freedom in the quantum world. I don't really understand that fully myself, I'm trying to.

    Think of it this way, if the universe itself were the size of a pinpoint, or even the size of 10 atoms, and thats all that existed, those 10 atoms if they developed a self awareness, would be so ridicuously aware that it would be unimaginable by our standards, because everything that exists would be smaller, but the awareness wouldnt be smaller. Let's say these self aware 10 atoms DECIDED to spin?

    Does this cause a paradigm shift?

    Now take another example, lets say you have a lifeform thats the size of a galaxy, you'd think it would be more aware right? That lifeform would actually be a tool for the atoms/universe to become aware.

    Quantum entanglement, atoms can be in multiple places at once. Conciousness can move faster than light. The proof is you can put text in a photon, and quantum entangle it accross the universe.

    Now if WE can cause this to happen, and we are just atoms ourselves, and only solid due to electro-magnetism, it should cause another paradigm shift.

    The more you learn about modern quantum physics the more paradigm shifts you get, and quantum philosophy is very interesting to me because people are ignoring it or just don't understand what all this stuff could mean.

    http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/

    http://www.qpt.org.uk/index3.php?id=4&id2=32
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2007
  15. mackmack Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    123
    i agree with timetraveler. its not about what reality is but that our reality is governed by laws and patterns. if you study statistics at universities they will tell you all the probability of things and these probabilities dont happen by chance. those things are created by someone or something or a group of things that are intelligent.

    i believe that the human race is created just like cars. there is not one person responsible for our existence. there are lots of people involved in the creation of a car--the people who designed the cars, the manufacturers, the people who designed the gps systems, the people who designed the wheels and so forth.

    this theory of mine that god exist doesn't mean that i support any religion out there. i just said taht there is a god. But for scientists to come out publicly and say that life is random is just wrong.
     
  16. QuantumManDaniel Registered Member

    Messages:
    5
    I understand the skepticism that is being generated here, but I think it is because there is a slight mix up. I am not saying that life is random by any means. The consciousness I described may very well be the theoretically proven existence of a "divine" existence of some sort ( I actually believe that it most likely is). However, the juxtuposition of religious and scientific dialougue is a recipe for disaster. Science has its place just as religious or spiritual conviction has its place. To mix the two openly is to betray both studies.

    That being said:

    consciousness is NOT just a collaboration of information. And life is NOT random. The happenings of the universe are governed by a wave function which measures the probability of an occurence in multi-dimensional spacetime. But, what I failed to say is that these probable "realities" do not simply occur randomly. Rather, they interact in much the same way that a wave does. The wave of probability for these "realities" exhibits properties of wave interference. This suggests that we cannot simply consider one "reality" we must consider an infinite number of realities occuring simultaneously in order to get a picture of REALITY. That does not make the observed universe any less real. In fact, it makes the observed universe ultimately real. Someone adequately put that consciousness is the condition of testing reality. It is. In the phenomenon of quantum entanglement, any two particles have to have a net spin of zero. By setting the net spin to zero, the scientists then record the probability of the spins of each particle. The probability represents both spin and position. The cool thing is that the particles aren't just executing one of those realities, but are executing every possible reality they can embody. Once a scientist measures (observes) a certain spin for one of the particles, the other one is INSTANTANEOUSLY set. The same is true for the observed universe. Only after observation is reality really "real."

    On a side note: I AM a very mathematical person, but I ask that you think twice before seeking the God Equation. To reduce the divine down to a series of finite symbols and numbers in an equation seems like blasphemy to me. Not even infinity is totally infinite. Therefore, any mathematical expression used to describe a divine entity would invariably leave something out.
     
  17. nicholas1M7 Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,417
    To quote a certain character in a certain movie with the first letter, N, aka the O, "whoa".
     
  18. heliocentric Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,117
    Yes ive come to the same conclusion over the years, consciousness can be cimply explained as information exhange.
    Going by this interpretation everything is of course conscious of everything else as everything has the ability to receive/transmit information. The real question is, with small particles how exactly does this process work?
     
  19. QuantumManDaniel Registered Member

    Messages:
    5
    Through the constant exchange of force particles (such as photons, gravitons, etc.) by particles of matter via. the field of consciousness.
     
  20. heliocentric Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,117
    Id generally have to agree, consciousness as id see it is simply the ability to recieve and transmit information.
    Rather than a force i think its a simply a process.
    The problem is we dont understand how the process works on the quantum level.

    As a thought experiment though, if we 'could' harness the quantum process and somehow make it appliable on the macro scale then we could essentially exchange information faster than light.
    So fast infact that you could answer a question at the same point in time as being asked it. From our perspective time would no long exist, wed simply experience all possible questions and all possible variables of answers at once.
    Im pretty sure the human mind already has the capability already to converse on this level funnily enough. The problem here though is that the brain generally doesnt seem able to sustain these states of mind for long periods of time.
     
  21. heliocentric Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,117
    Im not sure that really explains anything, i think thats simply replacing the original set of questions with another set of questions.
    If the process of information exhange is mediated by a consciousness field then we need to understand how that works instead.
     
  22. Sci-Phenomena Reality is in the Minds Eye Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    869
    Who here has seen the movie A.I. ? That movie blew my mind. It made me realize that humans are merely bio-robots.... it's almost sad, and yet, at the same time it feels exciting to think that we may one day have robots which exceed human ability... too many science fiction films? Perhaps...
     
  23. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    Perhaps, possibly even probably, but not necessarily so.
    Perhaps, humans and some of the more advanced animals are hybrids of your Bio-Robots and an informational process that is occurring in the brain. If our "psychological selves" are only an informational process running in the world's most advanced parallel processor (way beyond any parallel processor man has yet even dreamed of) then it is possible that genuine free will may exist. (Logic of programs running in a computer does not depend upon the physical laws by which that computer operates; and it is the logic of the program that is important, not whether it is executed by pneumatic or electric circuits.)

    I have posed long paper on this "We are an 'information process,' not governed by physical laws." POV. For that post go to:
    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1294496&postcount=52
    And begin to read at the bold text" Genuine Free Will is Possible
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2007
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page