Comparing faith to the Scientific Method.

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Vance Elwood, Mar 19, 2015.

  1. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

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    Yes and no... you are going to be compelled to believe it then because you are a gullible fool i.e. you choose to believe yourself rather than His Word.
     
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Harold Camping said that as well. The evidence would appear on September 6, 1994 in the form of Jesus Christ returning. God said so; it was in the Bible. Then on May 21, 2011. God said that would be the Judgment day. Then on October 21, 2011 - that would be the real Judgment Day.. All wrong of course - but boy did he make a lot of money from donations.
     
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  5. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Myself? I'm not a scientist, I don't believe myself, I believe in the scientific method because it's power has been demonstrated with everything from the moon landing to the technology you use to post here. While the word of God would have one believe in talking snakes and creationism, i.e. false things.

    But I'm not against knowing more information. While is may not be reasonable to believe in God at the present time, if He showed himself in an unambiguous way I would have no choice but to believe it. Belief is not a choice. I can no more make myself believe something against evidence than I can make myself love someone.
     
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  7. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

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    I appreciate your honesty--and so does He. Regarding Him showing Himself in an unambiguous way...He will in fact do that, as He has said. His Word is not false, and you will learn that one day. Personally, I wish for your sake that it didn't have to be the hard way. In that day, how easy it will seem to you to have trusted what He said, and yet you would not...
     
  8. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

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    He repented of that before he died, apologising for what he did...he would not listen to anyone trying to tell him he was wrong...I'm not sure what happened to money that was collected...he was not considered "mainstream", rather he was seen as off the wall on by many on many issues;

    Regarding the Lord's return, no one knows they day or the hour, but we are told to "take heed, watch and pray" with respect to the discerning of end time events--underway as we speak.
     
  9. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    I'm rather proud of that. There is no good reason to trust the word of God as described by the Bible. And by the way, even if I were compelled to believe in such a God, I would still not worship or praise Him. I don't think he deserves it.
     
  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Good for him. Do you think you will do something similar?
     
  11. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    We don't understand why existence exists in the first place, why it necessarily conforms to logic, what kind of things the laws of physics are or how they got to be what they are. The physical constants are just one part of a much bigger mystery.

    The fine-tuning challenge does seem to be motivating some of the recent interest in multiverse theories where the laws and constants are assigned randomly to what might be an infinity of universes. That, combined with a weak anthropic argument, would seemingly account for why we seem to be in a universe fine-tuned for the pleasure of beings like us. (Because beings like us wouldn't exist to be pleased in unsuitable universes.) But we still have no plausible reason to believe that our own universe is the only one that can possibly be suitable for the development of self-reproducing, evolving sentient beings.

    That's the anthropic principle.

    All of which will likely be perceived by their those at their ends as having been designed specifically for them.

    From what? Photizo strutting around like a little rooster, preaching that all knees will eventually bow to whatever imaginary thing he believes in? I think that we are doing Sciforums a service. The fine-tuning arguments are certainly relevant to a thread that's ostensibly about faith, science and whether there is any evidence that supports religious beliefs.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2015
  12. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

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    You will be compelled by your own emotions--through what you observe (resulting in a change of mind) on that day--to freely worship and praise Him! Alas, this will be bittersweet for you.
     
  13. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

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    Can you be more specific?
     
  14. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    The fact of religious inspired hatred, ignorance, and violence would still exist, even in your future where the evidence for God would be apparent.
     
  15. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

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    Revelation 21 indicates otherwise:
    I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” He who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

    So, it is your word against God's Word:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    He was with God in the beginning.
    Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made.
    In Him was Life, and that Life was the light of men.
    The Light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood It.

    Do not put yourself in opposition to Him.
     
  16. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    But it's not just my word. It's reality vs. fantasy. It's evidence vs. reading tea leaves.

    Oh no, it's the grim!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  17. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed.
     
  18. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    You said (of Camping) that "he repented of that before he died, apologising for what he did...he would not listen to anyone trying to tell him he was wrong . . . "

    Then you stated that the end time is "underway as we speak." If events prove you wrong, as they did for Camping, will you apologize as well?
     
  19. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

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    Camping was some type of engineer, not sure what type...he felt that he had mathematically figured out the time frame of the Lords return...he was adamant despite the fact that Jesus clearly stated the day and hour are unknown.

    What I said is confirmed by the Word i.e. we have been in the last days since Jesus returned to heaven. I'm not asserting anything in opposition to the Word as Camping did, rather agreeing with/announcing what has already been said by the Apostles.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2015
  20. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    All of the "forthcoming extraordinary evidence" that you present is nothing more than assertions by people who lived two millennia ago. These assertions themselves are just as extraordinary as the hypotheses they pretend to support, and have the same total lack of supporting evidence. This is what we now recognize as argument by authority, which is one of the most egregious types of logical fallacy.

    Most of us learned to beware of this kind of dishonest argument in our first year at university. And you, apparently, are one of the snake-oil salesmen they were warning us about.
    Sorry, but I spend exactly zero percent of my time, effort and other resources worrying about an imaginary encounter with an imaginary creature.

    Well, perhaps that is not entirely true. I do find myself occasionally daydreaming about how much fun it would be to go on a quest with Frodo Baggins, to have an adventure with Winnie the Pooh, or to sit and chat with Kermit the Frog.

    I quite reasonably regard Jesus as a member of that group of imaginary creatures, and I would probably enjoy having a conversation with him. (Yes, it's possible that there was a real person named Jesus, but the Jesus of the Bible has so many fantastic accretions added to his biography that the Biblical person is just as imaginary as a Muppet.)

    All of your post is nothing but your very own attempt to finagle us with argument by authority. It's amusing that you think you can get away with this kind of bullshit on a website that is not only dedicated to science, but also monitored by people with scientific educations, many of whom are actual professional scientists.
     
  21. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

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    I have not presented any evidence...the forthcoming evidence will be the event itself when it happens. That's why it is forthcoming. At the time when every knee bows and every tongue confesses... that event will be the evidence necessary demonstrating/proving the truth of the assertion made so many years ago.

    Well, you won't be able to say you weren't invited.

    No, an appeal, actually... hoping against hope, I guess.
     
  22. jabbaska Registered Member

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    My reply will be based on the thread's title and on some of the responses from other people.

    First and foremost you can't compare faith to the Scientific Method. I do not think this is only my opinion, it's a fact. The only thing you can actually do is use the scientific method to prove faith is unprovable. I remember Carl Sagan's story about the dragon in the garage (Book - Demon Haunted World):

    This is not science or anything even remotely close to it. There is no place for faith in science. Imagination, creativity yes, never faith. I am an atheist, not because I believe god doesn't exist, but because I know there is no place for an entity and no need for it. The cosmos works perfectly fine without someone or something controling it. Also, our view of a deity is OUR view, our HUMAN view. A couple of centuries ago we still believed the sun revolved around the earth and not the other way around. Our view of religion, god etc etc is based merely on our interpretation of the world and reality. Strange stuff comparing faith with scientific method...

    http://www.crowsmos.pt/dont-thank-god/
     
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  23. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    Faith appears in science, when science reaches the frontiers of knowledge. We don't know exactly how the universe formed in all the details. We try to piece things together from sparse indirect data. What results has an element of faith, since there is no hard proof, to the level of common things. We don't know how life appeared on the earth, since nobody has smoking gun proof in or out of the lab. We need a certain level of faith. If you stay inside the box of knowledge, and never look out the windows, or exit the doors, faith is not needed. If we stick to soil science, but don't look at the stars, faith is not needed.

    The inventor who persists in his invention for years, needs faith, since what he tries to so, has not been done and has no proof. Nobody will just give him money, since they will lack his faith. The inventor is outside the box, in the frontier. He has his faith as his shield, to complement his sword of reason. He is prepared to fight for the treasure that lies outside the box.

    The faithless will often not let him back into the box, if he stinks of faith without proof. They can only see the invention, if he hand it on a plate. The lack of faith does not make it easy foe them to see anything, but the obvious.

    Faith is the belief in things not seen. All new things that will be, have yet to be seen, and will need the charisma of faith, to shield one from the doubt and uncertainty of the mass mind. They fear the unknown and choose not to have faith less they have to leave the box.

    Many of the middle age Alchemists were Priests who were trained to be Doctors. They began the journey into modern science, developing many of the tools needed for early science. They were men of faith, who roamed way outside the box, exploring new frontiers, at a time there was no precedent. The faithless dared not let anyone leave the box. Faith led to science and now science tries to abandon faith. This is because the leaders of science are not the pioneers, but the bureaucrats of science, who live inside the box.
     

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