Cold fusion device in production

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by quantum_wave, Apr 26, 2011.

  1. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you WLW. I'm on vacation tour in Italy, arrived today and am trying to defeat the jet lag by staying up until normal bedtime locally so I'm sitting in an Internet Café. If you spend 5 Euros you get free WiFi so I'm buzzed on Espresso. Funny thing is that next week we drive right near Bologna on our way to Venice. Do you think I can get the bus driver to stop while I look up Andrea Rossi, lol. No, I guess not.
     
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  3. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    It's worth a shot. Rossi probably doesn't cater to drop-in guests, but maybe if you explained that his work is being discussed on Sciforums he might make an exception in your case. It might make for an historical footnote you could tell your grandkids someday!
     
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  5. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    Looks like he has the patent approved by the Italians, from what it appears the EU will follow, likely at least. Here is a on-going discussion:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Energy_Catalyzer#Italian_patent

    "Italian patentIMHO this is a remarkable information: the Ufficio Italiano Brevetti e Marchi (Italian Office for Patents and Trademarks) has licenced the patent for the Energy Catalyzer: http://www.uibm.gov.it/uibm/dati/Av..._uno&id=1610895&table=Invention&#ancoraSearch
    Ufficio italiano brevetti e marchi,
    TITLE: "processo ed apparecchiatura per ottenere reazioni esotermiche, in particolare da nickel ed idrogeno."
    (TRANSLATION: "process and equipment to obtain exothermal reactions, in particular from nickel and hydrogen")
    N. Brevetto 0001387256
    Data Deposito: 09 aprile 2008,
    Data Brevetto 06 aprile 2011,
    Inventori: Andrea Rossi.

    So, the date of the deposit is 9 April 2008 and the date of the licence (patent obtained) is 6 April 2011.--79.6.145.119 (talk) 08:43, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

    I don't speak Italian, and Google Translate doesn't help here: can someone find a link to the patent text? It would be worth knowing exactly what it is that has been patented. It would also be worth looking for any reports in WP:RS regarding the granting of the patent, as the patent itself is a primary source, and Wikipedia should ideally cite secondary sources - without knowledge of Italian patent law, it is difficult to assess the significance of this. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:13, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
    It seems that the abstract and the description for the italian patent are not publicly available yet, according to this page: http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publ...ODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=IT&NR=MI20080629A1&KC=A1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.16.217.164 (talk) 14:20, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
    Unless Italian patent law is rather unorthodox, I cannot see how a patent can have been granted without making public what it is that has been patented. Can we be sure that the patent actually has been granted, rather than the application for the patent? These are two different parts of the process, as I understand it. Again, without secondary sources, trying to make sense of this is difficult. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:34, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
    I can give you a possible answer about this issue. The patent is so fresh (basically the "verdict" was published yesterday on the website) that usually it requires a "while" before publishing the content of the patent. How long does this process take? I do not know, but occasionally it takes a lot of time...
    Comment: if the European patent is not approved then it is also possible that the Italian patent shall be "ovverruled" in the future by an unfavourable decision concerning the European patent. That is the reason why, even now, (ie after obtaining the Italian patent) Andrea Rossi cannot still "chant for victory" IMHO.--79.6.145.119 (talk) 14:46, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
    According to someone I have consulted on this, there are no national patents in the EU now, which I think means the above scenario can't happen and the patent is secure. If anyone disagrees with this, perhaps they can indicate an RS?
    Also, Re AtG's query as to why we can't see the details, I have come across a web page that says the details of the application are kept secret for a certain period, normally 18 months, which explains why we currently have only a general indication. --Brian Josephson (talk) 17:03, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
    In any case, the granting of a patent is no indication that the 'Catalyzer' (a) works, or (b) is commercially viable if it does. This is all speculative though - again, please find sources. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:54, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
    You got perfectly right: the only new thing we know now is that an Italian patent was guaranteed to Andrea Rossi, but this information alone is not an indication tha the E-Cat (a) works, or (b) is commercially viable if it does.--79.6.145.119 (talk) 14:59, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
    Of course -- it is the experiments, which hardly fit our creative Editor's characterisation 'dog and pony show' which (IMO) indicate that it works. And if Rossi is telling the truth (which of course we can't yet assume), the E-cat is already in commercial use. --Brian Josephson (talk) 17:03, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
    Now the patent is being referred to on Defkalion's website. http://www.defkalion-energy.com/ 90.192.141.219 (talk) 20:03, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[4]"

    also,

    http://www.defkalion-energy.com/

    The company that is supposedly going to be the manufacture also listing the patent on their new site. For what it's worth. Again, I am not advocating this is real yet, but the other shoe hasn't dropped.

    Also, the patent doesn't mean it will do all it say's of course. But we aren't going to hear anymore about how it works from Rossi without it so maybe he will start to reveal more information.

    I am still curious from others, aside from whether this is real or not, I still see this or another such device that is discovered as such a blow to the financial system in the short run that we would have to regulate it's impact such that it doesn't cause absolute chaos to the very system and persons it is supposed to help. Which is all those who have investments in stocks/bonds etc. Which is most of us.

    If this is true and he just starts running with it, there are people who are going to be crapping their pants and jumping out of buildings.
     
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  7. chosenbygrace Registered Member

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    Another kick to the collective ass the Mainstream Science Cult.
     
  8. DRZion Theoretical Experimentalist Valued Senior Member

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    This is true, we don't want to implement it too quickly. A very good idea for chemists now would be to really explore possible alternative uses for fossil fuels. Oil has plenty of uses other than gasoline, so its not like oil is going to be useless even if we find free energy. Coal is also being gasefied and liquefied and polymerized into plastics. My personal opinion is that someone should find a way to convert coal to animal feed stocks using some kind of microbe.

    Pff, ace hardware, these guys are amateurs. I can build a free energy machine out of clay and seawater.

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  9. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Sure you can DRZ, but what is the cost of your free energy?

    The behavior of particles at the atomic and subatomic levels is not completely understood and so E-Cat may not be able to be described in a fashion that is acknowledged by the scientific community yet. But if it is a real effect, it may not only be a cheap energy source but it may hold clues to some as yet unknown nature of particles.

    To me that is as big as the energy gain effect itself in terms of implications for the future.
     
  10. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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  11. DRZion Theoretical Experimentalist Valued Senior Member

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    Wow, its hard to believe this is happening. I don't really know that much about the e-cat or rossi, but this video is at least balanced.

    QW, I agree that figuring out the mechanics behind the process will be valuable as well. This is truly a 'discovery', since it has been found to work through experience rather than by following through with theory. This discovery can now be encapsulated in theory which will eventually fit in with other fields of physics.

    I don't really know the costs of mine ... 1 cent / kWh is going to be tough. What puts my machine over these is that it can be made very simply with even the most basic technology, so it could really spread like wildfire through the third world.

    What really gets me excited is the possiblity of flying cars with such compact sources of energy .. commuting 200 or even 300 miles may be a possibility in the near future

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  12. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Get real!! If you HAD a "machine" it would spread like wildfire through EVERY part of the world !!:bugeye:
     
  13. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member

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    Youtubes.

    There's a sucker born every minute, and two to take him.
     
  14. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Yep.

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    And if DRZ actually WAS for real, he'd be one of the busiest persons alive and sure wouldn't be wasting any time messing with the Internet!!!!

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  15. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    I have a hopeful positive attitude; time will tell. I'll just keep following this until the verdict is rendered. If it is bogus or fails to meet expectations then fine, that's life. Why not hope for the best since failure is not a set back to the world and success, if it is a valid reaction, will change the world and science.
     
  16. DRZion Theoretical Experimentalist Valued Senior Member

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    No, that project is basically done so I am not spending much time on it.... actually being very lazy and feeling bad about it

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    ...In theory it is possible to convert heat into usable energy and decrease the entropy of a closed system. I recently found a gem of a paper where this guy observes a voltage spontaneously forming in a neutral salt solution. He explicitly, yet tactfully, states that this violates the nernst equation.

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    It is not cited once.

    And I hope that rossi is a fraud. He is very serious competition

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  17. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    I'll repeat it again - if you actually HAD something you'd be busy raising money to build a factory to turn out your (nonexistent) gadget by the millions instead of just wasting time. So that in itself is clear, irrefutable PROOF that you have absolutely nothing. :shrug:
     
  18. Pete It's not rocket surgery Registered Senior Member

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    What theory?
    Cite?
     
  19. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not up to speed on his theory but ...

    DRZ, if you can convert heat to energy and reduce entropy at the same time you have something. Sounds like Rossi MAY have the heat source so why wouldn't you hope for him? You could employ your device with his. Of course there are a couple of big IFs,

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    .
     
  20. DRZion Theoretical Experimentalist Valued Senior Member

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    I guess you're right. There is no point in finding something and then doing nothing with it. But, the hurdles are substantial - I have no experience starting businesses, unlike Rossi. I have no credentials, not even a bachelors degree, yet. I have no capital. I have no work published. The only thing I can really rely on is myself, and that not so much. The first thing I will try to do is write a paper which will persuasively show that entropy can be decreased permanently in closed systems. This way I will have some grounds for further action.

    I guess its a lot easier to prove to oneself that something is possible, then it is to put an entire plan into action.

    The second law of thermo is not always accurate. It is incredibly accurate in chemical processes and in enthalpy equations, but sometimes it is not the case, for instance in the case of geometric arrangement of matter. Geometry existed before matter, and chemistry arose after.. chemistry is a thing with history, the natural history of the atom, while geometry is pure and untouched by entropy. So geometric arrangements of matter and isotropic forces (for instance molecular motions) can be used to reduce entropy while it is impossible through chemistry.

    Yes, more than one

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    first off we don't know if Rossi's machine even works. Then it is even less plausible that mine works. To me it seems that Rossi has it very well figured out and his design does not require much improvement. Still, if heat can be converted directly into electricity/kinetic energy there would be no need for a steam turbine, perhaps lowering costs? :shrug:
     
  21. Jarek Duda Registered Senior Member

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    I'm personally very confused what to think about Rossi, but thanks of it I've became generally more optimistic about LENR, especially that I couldn't find any really reasonable counterarguments (do you know any?).
    Let's think about the theory - the standard trial of explanation is so called Widom-Larsen Theory in which proton and electron combine into neutron to screen coulomb barrier – sounds great, but required energy for such process is 0.78MeV – it’s quite huge, we could borrow it from vacuum due to Heisenberg principle, but only for about 4*10^-22s. Protons in room temperature have about 1000m/s velocity, so in this way we could only explain last attometers … (thermally it's completely improbable).

    To understand LENR, we would indeed rather require electron’s charge to screen charge of proton, but it should be rather between proton and nucleus. It occurs that taking into consideration electron’s magnetic moment(or low angular momentum Sommerfeld orbits), classical approximation of electron’s behavior is literally bouncing from nucleus – or between nucleus and proton screening the Coulomb barrier as required for fusion.
    These classical trajectories were considered for a few decades by Michal Gryzinski ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-fall_atomic_model ), he became cold fusion enthusiast after P&F experiment and had explaining article in Nature a month after and a few patents. Here is discussion about it on this forum.
    In this explanation the helping electron obtains finally huge energy - it would solve part of the puzzle of not observing high energy gammas (>200keV).
     
  22. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    From your link: "Free-fall atomic model was introduced by Michał Gryziński in 1965 as a consequence of developed by him classical scattering theory. In this model electrons don't circulate as in Bohr model, but make almost radial free-fall to the nucleus and because of magnetic moment, Lorentz force bend their trajectory and so they go away back to the initial distance. The author in many peer-reviewed papers showed good agreement of this model to experimental results. The theory is not currently accepted as part of mainstream physics."

    This is interesting and somewhat practical though as a layman I don't know the full ramifications, I can suspect what they are. The model of the atom would evolve into a different picture.

    I'll leave that to the experts and here is not the place for me to pretend to have any logical speculation about it. But if there is a period in the evolution of the universe where protons form it would seem that they would do so as a clumping process. The clumps would achieve stability as the expansion of the energy density took place around them and when the proton formation process was done, the physical proton would have no open niche to allow further clumping. The captured electrons would approach the surface, find no niche and bounce back out only to try again. Please just laugh about this and don't get all upset about wild speculation here in a hard science forum. I'm just encouraging discussion on the ideas brough in by others

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    .
     
  23. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Here is a recent response from AR to a question at this site:
    Andrea Rossi
    May 25th, 2011 at 9:11 AM
    Dear Mr Eli Gin:
    1- never, as I already explained, because the drive is necessary for safety, for reasons that are confidential
    2- the shut down is made turning a switch. The emergrncy procedure is contained in the manuals for the Customers and is reserved to them
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    I wonder if anyone has asked him if he knows from experience what the dangers are of turning off the heater; maybe he had a little lab accident somewhere along the line? lol.
     

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