CMB Photons

Seems an awful lot of wild arm waving to avoid the simple answer wlminex already gave.

Yes, nothing has significantly changed since the decoupling of matter from radiation. I would explain, but it seems any such attempt is swallowed by your crusade, and hence a waste of time.

 

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You characterize wanting straight answers without evasions a "crusade"? Why? Isn't that what YOU do when you think a 'crank' has not answered the questions YOU put to him? Double standards again?

And that's it? You have just said absolutely nothing. You merely made allusions to things which do not address the fact that the cosmic environment has produced all sorts of NON-neutral processes and features since the early 'last scattering'.

You tried to pretend that you had the 'answer' by making allusions to 'neutral' matter/atoms etc.

wiminex pointed out that the detectors can detect CMB photons electromagnetically. Something you implied was impossible since the 'last scattering'.

Moreover, now that you are made to realize that the environment since then has evolved to be not so 'neutral', you also haven't answered the now obvious FACT that CMB photons which (you now allude to wiminex's answer about 'neutral' detectors) actually DO interact electromagnetically with BOTH neutral detectors AND the NON-neutral matter/processes/features in the cosmic environment since the 'last scattering'.


In effect, you can't have it both ways. Or even ONE way. Since you now cannot support EITHER way your glib claim that CMB photons do not interact anymore electromagnetically.....since now we know that they DO interact both with neutral detectors AND NON-neutral cosmic environment.


You've effectively said nothing in support of your and brucep's glib CMB photons assertions and 'explanations'...and painted yourself into a corner.


Obviously the CMB photons may also have provenance in both the EVOLVING neutral and charged cosmic environment/processes content/features SINCE the 'last scattering'. Which may make the current 'interpretations' of the CMB as a 'supporting observation' FOR big bang cosmology SUSPECT and worthy of REVIEW in the light of what we've just discussed.

So what have you got to say now? Please just say something that makes sense instead of making all these armwaving vague allusions to things which do NOT support your glib 'explanations' about CMB non-interactivity electromagnetically.

Either admit you and brucep et al were in error to present such glib 'explanations' which are obviously CONTRADICTED by observations NOW (of CMB electromagnetic interactions NOW), or prom can give you a holiday for evasion and presenting out-of-date 'non-explanations' as if they were anything at all of the kind.

Let's see how long prometheus will let you get away with that sort of evasion. It will be another test of his 'impartiality' as mod.

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Jesus RealityCheck, take a breath already! Nobody is saying that the microwave photons are incapable of being absorbed by matter, like they are in a microwave detector. Go back to the first page and read [carefully] the articles cited by brucep.

If you still have a problem with this, then all I have to say is that James is frighteningly right on with is essay!

 

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At Last! Someone with some sense. Thanks origin.

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Now then, brucep has claimed that "CMB photons do not interact electromagnetically" anymore since the last 'scattering' event.

Thanks to wiminex question and my subsequent questions, we have just established two things:

- CMB photons DO interact electromagnetically SINCE the last scattering (hence our ability to detect them via 'electromagnetic interaction', as you just agreed, and which therefore makes brucep's initial claim FALSE since he said they did NOT interact electromagnetically anymore); and, even more importantly for its implications...

- CMB photons MUST also interact electromagnetically with a myriad of evolved NON-neutral and Neutral matter, features/processes arising SINCE the last scattering event (which brings into suspicion the usual glib 'explanation' that CMB photons must be ONLY from the big bang 'last scattering' and not from other provenance/processes SINCE then in the much EVOLVED cosmic environment all around).


So, in that new 'perspective', please answer me this:

Are the 'electromagnetically interacting' CMB photons we detect NOW in our evolved cosmic environment PROVED BEYOND DOUBT to be the 'primordial' CMB photons from the last scattering event; OR is it possible that the detected CMB photons have a provenance in the EVOLVED neutral and non-neutral features/matter/processes which have arisen and which DO interact/produce/absorb all sorts of MW radiation SINCE that last scattering?

Thanks.

 

Oh boy, typical question for someone who has no science education!

I remeber when I first learned about theories in my first physics class'''

[fade to a fog, which solidifies into a class room with a much younger 'origin']

Good morning class.
[in unison] Good morning Prof. Keith!
Today we will learn about theories,
Now repeat after me -

Therories cannot be proven, they can only be disproven.
Therories cannot be proven, they can only be disproven,
Theories cannnot be....

 

Good morning, origin.

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I am perfectly aware of that. You misunderstand. That is not what was asked of you. Try to follow...

Relativity is theory.

Quantum Mechanics is theory.

BUT....Big Bang is still Hypothesis...and...

Microwave Background is an Observable Fact....one Interpretation/Assumption of which is that it is the Primordial Microwaves from the 'last scattering'.

This Interpretation/Assumption is claimed as one Supporting Argument FOR big bang Hypothesis.

It is this Interpretation/Assumption that is in question here.....based on the Observation that we all just agreed on: that Microwave Background Photons DO Interact Electromagnetically with both neutral and non-neutral cosmic environment SINCE hypothetical big bang 'last scattering'.

Hence IF the Microwave Background can be shown to be NOT of Primordial 'last scattering' provenance, then ONE SUPPORT for the interpretation/assumption for the big bang Hypothesis is effectively REMOVED.

Get it? It is the interpretation/assumption about Microwave Background that is in question after the agreement about Microwave interactions since 'last scattering'. No more. No less.

And your response seems to have EVADED the straightforward question altogether. Why is that? Please try again. Thanks.

 

Nah, you're an arrogant jerk that is not worth my time.

I cannot continue to reply to you or I will get myself banned.

Write your TOE and change the world. Good luck.

 

When you cannot manage to answer a simple question, yes, it seems your answer has been swallowed by your long-winded crusade. And you cannot seriously complain about people not answering questions when you never seem capable of do so yourself. And, just because you stubbornly refuse to accept any answer given you, does not mean that an answer was not given.

And I see the mods have called a hiatus to this latest row.

 

RC is wrong continuously. The CMB photons are not interacting electromagnetically. If they were they would be absorbed and no longer a part of a CMBR with a black body spectrum. They were decoupled from any further interaction with matter at 'last scattering'. This is the end result of photons which didn't have the energy to be involved in 'recombination'. Just thought I'd give him something to rant about while he's on vacation. You write some nice posts. "Now repeat after me RC have a fun vacation".

 

Don't want to intrude or get in the middle of a fight, but after reading this thread I am left with the impression that something is amiss but can't put my finger on it.

Everyone agrees that MWs do interact electromagnetically when detected by us. Right? Everyone agrees that most of what astronomers see (suns, novae, supernovae, jets and winds from galaxy centres and neutron stars and black hole vicinity to name most of the stuff) is matter bodies and clouds in plasma and charged states. Also neutral atoms and molecules do exist as well.

So after reading this thread my question is this, if MWs do interact with neutral matter in our detectors and do interact with plasma charged matter, how can the MWs survive from big bang to be detected?

The argument that because they are detected means they do not interact is circuitous and illogical isn't it? If they interact with detectors and they interact with plasmas and charged matter, then maybe MWs are not so old or from far distance?

Concluding that because we detect MWs they must be from Big Bang epoch does not follow the agreed positions in this thread. What may appear to WMAP as coming from a cosmic distance and big bang source could be coming from various processes emitting redshifted MWs from fast moving sources (doppler redshifted) and from deep gravity wells (climbing away from neutron star and black hole horizons). Couldn't it?

So why is there the assumption that MW background is from big bang just because we detect them? Why is there the assumption that they do not interact when they interact with detectors and plasmas and charged matter?Are there any astronomical studies which may explain MW background wavelengths as from other than big bang process?

This thread makes me want to ask question after question. That is very good. Very stimulating!

 

I think I understand your question to be about "information" vs "photon carriers".

The golden rule according to currently held light effect models, is simply that information you are observing is always delayed due to the limitation of the speed of light.
Example: We have just observed a nova some 30,000 light years away. That nova [ information ] is 30,000 years old as it takes the information we have recorded 30,000 years for it to get here. The information is entirely historical. Yet the photons measured are current when they arrive. [information delivered by photon] We have no solid idea beyond speculation what is currently [today] occuring regarding this Nova.
When you record the night sky with your sky cam you are recording history only... none of the stella information you record is current. [According to current models regarding photons travel time]

The same applies for measurements of the CBR, I would imagine.

If you measure it [CBR], is it a measurement of information that is current to the measuring devices time or is it a historical data recording of radiation from a historical event?

A very valid question IMO.

Are the CBR "information" readings recordings of historical events, if so how many light years ago are they referring to?
Is there any current information CBR recordings or does all information we record refer to historical events?

and extending the issue a little:

How relevant to todays universe is that information?

 

I think in the case of the cat, perhaps we could place that in the present, at least as far as when it was recorded. The time delay between the cat licking the dome and the camera recording the event, wouldn't even be separated by a nanosecond.

 

Is the cat named Stella? hmmmm... nice name for a cat!

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"There once had a cat named Stella"
who was a remarkable fella.
hmmmm...
He licked the dome
then made his way home
and dreamed all night of his bella"

 

LOL! That's so touching, QQ. It reminded me of Twilight. I'm having it engraved!

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I am glad you liked it....spontaneous lymericks are fun...
well it is nice that you managed to get some value from your rather insightful thread....
but alas I think I killed it with my confirming of your insight....sorry...
oh don't fret... Steller is still there, 'tis just we can't see it, or so they say....

"There once was a cat called Stella
who couldn't be seen by his bella,
All he could tell
as if ringing a bell,
"I am here, now and not yesterday"
.......................is all I am wanting to tell ya"

 

You know me well, Mother.

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