Clever Car -- the future of automobiles

To Jpappl:

Mother nature has an upper limit on the energy per pound which is easy to calcualte: just divide the "ionization potential" (which despite the name is an energy, typically in electron volts) by the mass of the Lithium atom. Because of the need for electrolite, substrate structure, electrode terminals and packaging I doubt that reaching even 1/3 of that is possible in practice. Might be interesting to see what that natural limit is in KWH / pounds and how that compares to the best Li-ion batteries that now exist.

 

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I understand. I didn't mean to imply that the limit is endless.

But things are advancing very fast in the field, that is why I think we will see not only more all electrics as time goes on but between now and then, hybrids that will allow for farther commutes by electric only.

I have a great real life example of the battery advancement. I have a friend, older guy who enjoys competitive electric boat racing, for years he said the batteries we all the same, and you did what you could with the boat to improve it's speed and performance. Over the last 2-3 years, he said now it's all about the batteries. If you don't keep up with the latest greatest most advanced out there you can find, you will left behind. He said it is insane how fast it is moving.

From a mass production side, it is a little more complicated, by the time you set up to manufacture one battery pack there is a new more advanced version on the way. Because of that, we would expect to never have the best available for the cars. it will always lag a few years behind. Even as Tesla was using the standard over the counter brand, DeWalt tools was working with A123 which were faster charging and longer lasting. The Tesla would have been better and lighter but the investment was already made.

I would expect that sometime in the future, they would see a combination of or a replacement of lithium as well for the best batteries. What that is I do not know, just a hunch.

 

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Billy-T,

Here is a press release from Tesla showing their merge with Daimler. Daimler will hold 10%stake. They have been working together to use Tesla's battery approach for the smart car.

For what it is worth.

http://www.teslamotors.com/media/press_room.php?id=1356

By the way, I am not a proponet of Tesla solely, don't work for them and feel they will be relegated to the sidelines at some point. I am just happy that they are pushing this, alot of credit has been given to them for forcing companies to move in this direction, whether that is true or to what extent I can't say, just glad it is moving there because we need it too.

 

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“…Sealed lead-acid batteries can deliver 30 to 50 watt-hours per kilogram, NiCad can deliver 45 to 80, NiMH can deliver 60 to 120, and li-ion can reach as high as 180.
typically, lithium-ion technology has been getting 3% to 4% better per year for the last several years.
This has happened mostly by making the packaging more efficient and by using thinner separators between the layers of reactive materials, explains Ross Dueber, president and CEO of ZPower, a battery startup in Camarillo, Calif. But, he warns, "Without any move to a new chemistry there will be no dramatic improvements from here."
{These comments directly related to portable computer batteries but not very much chance that the energy per kilogram in car application will be better as the sales premium of shaving 1% off the weight is much greater in the computer market that in a car – So great they went too far. I.e.}
Buchmann and Dueber agree that thinner separators were the source of the laptop battery fires that have made headlines in the past few years.

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Lithium-ion batteries consist of a positive terminal (the cathode) and a negative terminal (the anode) and the electrolyte material. The anode and cathode material are wrapped around each other but kept out of contact by a thin separator, whose failure has been known to trigger fires. Source: General Motors ..."

All above, except my {insert} is from:http://www.computerworld.com/action...d=9133183&source=CWNLE_nlt_dailyam_2009-05-20

Lithium’s Ionization potential = 5.3917eV & Atomic Weight = 6.941 (in AMU obviously)
53,917,000,000,000,000,000,000,000eV =2.400kWh (From: http://convert-to.com/energy-units.html)
Or 53.917eV = 2.400E-24kWh (Note if you go to above site to check, you must remove all commas.)
Or 5.3917eV = 2.4E-25kWh = 2400E-25Wh = 24E-23Wh

1 atomic mass unit = 1.66053886 × 10^-27 kilograms so Li atom weight is 11.526E-27kg

Thus theoretical limit of energy density of a Li-ion battery is:

24E-23 / 11.526E-27 Wh/kg = 2.08E4Wh/Kg = 208E2Wh/Kg and the “best” batteries have already achieved 180 Wh/Kg, but unfortunately they tend to catch fire in even computer use.

SUMMARY: Currently the Li-ion battery is far from the theoretical limit (by a factor of ~100) or 99% of it is “supporting weight.” As Lithium is the third element in periodic table, no solid battery has a higher theoretical limit. (H2 & He are both gases.) I would guess that they will never reach 300Wh/Kg but that great improvement of max charging rate are still possible. (If you can deliver power at high levels.)

 

As his own companies products are pointing out is that they maybe and in some cases better alternatives that may provide a medium to handle the charge, discharge rate which will be so important to the overall mileage capability of the all electric, if it is to go on without being a hybrid.

So what are the limits to engineering with Li-ion?

 

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1st pre-production road testing car. GM hopes to produce it by November 2010.

Goes 40 miles on electic only then uses gas IC and estimated to cost $40,000 ............... More details at: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=asNlJB.uFkJ8

Compare with BYD's F3DM which goes 62 miles on electric only and cost $22,000 ............. More details (from 2008) at: http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/15/byd-hybrid-car-markets-equity-cx_twdd_1215markets04.html

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In Chinese production. Expecting to make 400,000 in 2009.
Buffett owns 10% of factory (GWB's & Republican "TRICKLE DOWN" at work destroying US jobs.)

 

See modern VW factory automation at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd5WGLWNllA

An impressive show after less than minute of so/so introduction. (A good "eye opener" for the "USA is the best" crowd.)

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Also GM's sale of Hummer to Chinese firm is likely to be cancelled by China.
China does not want more pollution. See: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2293822&postcount=818

 

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Photo & text quoted below it from: http://www.economist.com/businessfinance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14140382

“Geely, China’s biggest privately owned car firm, … is simultaneously developing six modern platforms—an astonishing number even for a global giant such as Toyota—and is committed to launching nine new cars in the next 18 months and up to 42 new models by 2015.

The firm says its sales for the six months to the end of June reached 138,000, fuelled partly by government tax breaks aimed at boosting demand for the smaller cars made by China’s indigenous manufacturers. That implies a rise from a year ago of no less than 52%, nearly three times the rate at which the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers (CAAM) estimates the market grew in the same period. {Billy T inserts: Sales in US are down, YoY, not up, but perhaps the “Cash for Clunkers” may get the “First Place” in monthly total sales back for the US from China this month. Current projections are China will sell 13 million and US 11 million cars in 2009}

Geely appears to have no difficulty funding its expansion. Under Mr Zhao, a former Chrysler executive recruited in 2006, Geely has not only increased the number of engineers it employs from 350 to 1,200, but has established an entire university, the Zhejiang Automotive Engineering Institute, to turn out lots more. It has also bought assets abroad. …”
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Is there a Chinese Geely or a $2,500 Indian Nano in your future?

Does anyone know what the pros and cons are to having bigger tire in the front? (or conversely for that matter)? One disadvantage is that cannot swap front to back. I was sometimes not very good about paying for front end alignments on my old cars and needed to move the worn on one edge front tires to the back to get a few more miles out of them. I almost always bought two new tires and put them on the front.

I suspect this Geely model has most of the weight on the front and may need bigger tires to spread the heat generated by their flexing over a larger area. The smaller back ones reduces the cars total weight and that aids fuel economy as well as makes for a lower initial cost. Why is this not done on any US made car?

Any other comments?

 

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{This made in Mexico, for India,} “Beetle will sport a 1.9-litre TDI diesel engine and a 5-speed manual transmission. Its other features will include rain sensors and cruise control, along with acoustic rear parking sensors to fit into small parking spaces. Its safety features will include ABS, traction control, anti-skid system and standard front and side airbags. ..."

To be available in India in about 3 months for 20 Lakh (a Lakh = 10,000 ruppies so this is twice the price of the native Nano or about $5,000 each, if I did the conversions correctly)

PS I think the fact that VW needs to sell to India from it large Mexican plant that was built for the US market - says a lot about what VW thinks of the US auto market's future. Article / VW is honest in telling that they do not expect to sell many but want to get their VW name associated with quality famous product as plan next year or so to be offering a cheaper car made in India.

China and India are were the automotive markets of the future are. VW / Porch just merged and have a reasonable shot that becoming the world's largest maker of cars, but to do that they need to active in India (already are a leader in China, the world's largest market.)

 

"... Chery Automobile Co., China’s largest maker of own-brand cars, will start selling its first plug-in electric model around June, as the government encourages automakers to offer more environmentally friendly vehicles.

The company expects to sell about 30,000 S18s within three or four years, Fang Yunzhou, vice president of Chery’s new energy vehicle operations, said in an interview in Shanghai today. The car will cost as much as 130,000 yuan ($19,000).

China has supported automakers’ investments in alternative- energy vehicles to curb oil imports, reduce pollution and to help the local industry challenge General Motors Co. and Toyota Motor Corp. overseas. BYD Co., the Chinese automaker backed by billionaire Warren Buffett, started selling the world’s first mass-produced plug-in hybrid in December.

The S18 can travel as far as 150 kilometers (93 miles) using just its batteries. Plug-in cars can be recharged from standard household powerpoints. The S18 can be fully charged in as little as four hours, according to the company. ..."

FROM: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=acAHkypQkTgo

About,200,000 BYD cars will have been sold by end of 2009! Buffet just announced he wants to increase his 10% ownership in BYD motors. That is where Buffet's "trickle down" tax relief GWB granted was invested. It will help keep US auto industry dead for at least a decade as the BYD car goes farther and cost half the price as the Chevy Volt. looks at least as good also - see photo earlier in this thread of both.

Note: BYD is the world's largest maker of Lithium ion batteries - Good chance they made the one in your computer if it came from China. Current issue of The Economist* has an interesting artcle that points out that the electric car does not need years of experience with IC motors, gears and drive trains, thus the convetional car makers are NOT likely to be the ones that survive. Just like Timex was new to the wrist watch industry and digital cameras were not invented by Kodac., etc. for all new technologies. The dinosaurs, like GM who could not adapt, die.

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* http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14362092

 

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Vista

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“… Tata Motors Limited is India’s largest automaker, with revenues of US$9 billion in 2008. The company is a leader in the passenger vehicle market and is also the world’s fourth-largest truck manufacturer and second-largest bus manufacturer.

Tata had shown off an Electric vehicle based on the previous Indica, which would go on sale in Norway. A fuel cell Indica with ISRO is also in the works, and not to forget the Compressed Air technology Tata has invested in, shows Tata’s serious environmental commitment. Both the electric and fuel cell, with possibly a hybrid Indica will hit showrooms in the next 3 to 5 years in India. {100 in Norway prior to end of 2009 for field testing in cold conditions.}

The Electric Tata Indica Vista will employ a drive train sourced from Canadian company TM4. It will give the car 80 bhp and 170 Nm of torque. This motor is the latest from TM4’s line with the highest possible efficiency the company has reached. … TM4 has been selected by Miljø Innovasjon, {a Norwegian design branch} a subsidiary of Tata Motors, to provide electric motors, power electronics and vehicle controllers for an electric car demonstration program to be launched in Norway in 2009–2010. Under this program, Miljø will produce over one hundred units of an all-electric version of Tata Motors’ new Indica Vista….”{Assemble kits from parts made mainly in India}

Quotes above from: http://indianautosblog.com/2009/01/...ista-norway-electric-car-demonstation-program

“…Batteries for the Indica EV will be supplied by Canadian company Electrovaya and use its proprietary lithium-ion 'SuperPolymer' battery technology. The batteries will be placed in slim packs under the floor to maximise passenger space in the cabin. The electric motor – power output to be confirmed – will sit under the bonnet and drive the front wheels as per the petrol-powered Indica.
According to Tata, the Indica will have a range of 200km (125miles) on a full charge and get from 0-60kph (0-38mph) in under ten seconds. Top speed is said to be 130kph or just a shade over 80mph. …”
FROM: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/03/10/uk_tata_release_2009/

For full disclosure: I own stock in Tata Motors. (There is probably either a Vista or BYD, but not an expensive, lesser range, Chevy Volt, electric car in your future.)
Also interesting to note that US is not even in the game. Even oil-rich Norway is more advanced in electric cars! To understand why, Read:
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14362092

Next day Indian newspaper article:
"The company is still negotiating with the British government on the electric car project, which has no link with the Jaguar-Land Rover (JLR), said people with direct knowledge of the development.

Running on lithium-ion batteries, the Indica Vista EV will be faster and peppier than its petrol and diesel variants available in India. The car will have a top speed of 151 km an hour, maximum power of 55 kw at 4,000 rpm and 190 Nm of torque, the Tata Motors' application to the {English} commerce ministry said.

Tata Motors will soon roll out its £20-million (Rs 160 crore) electric car project in Norway and later scale it up for other Scandinavian markets. The Indica Vista EV has been designed and developed by Tata Motors' UK subsidiary, Tata Motors European Technical Centre. {Also by the Norwegian branch if above is true.}

The project involves assembling the car in Norway from semi-knocked down kits imported from India, an application by Tata Motors to the commerce ministry said. It is confident that the project will turn profitable within four years of start of production. However, there is no plan to introduce the electric variant in India, a Tata Motors official told ET NOW. "In future, Indica Vista EV could be manufactured in India if sales volumes justify."

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FROM: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4976002.cms

 

Not a GM volt, not a Tata Vista, not a Chinese BYD in looks, but about 1/4 th the price of the Volt and good for parking in the cities is:

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Not yet named in the EV version.
More details at: http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Repo...MDEwMQ==&Mode=HTML&Locale=english-skin-custom
Including:

"... GENERAL Motors India, the wholly-owned subsidiary of American carmaker General Motors Corporation, is in advanced talks with the world’s leading electric car manufacturing company, Bangalore-based Reva Electric Car Company, for a technical collaboration and a joint venture, executives close to the development said. GM India will source electric vehicle technology from Reva to roll out electric variants of its Chevrolet Spark small car in India and select overseas markets.
...
The two companies will enter into a 50:50 joint venture (JV), which is currently awaiting the green signal from GM’s Detroit headquarters. If the JV goes through, it will be GM’s first deal since it filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

The new alliance is another indicator of how much the Indian market means to the Chevy (Chevrolet) brand and the significance of electric vehicles in GM’s growth plans. ..."

 

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VW’s “E-up” (All electric on Li-ion batteries. Targets city only market.)

On sale by 2013 — and proliferate by 2020. … about 500 pounds of lithium-ion battery and scoots from zero to 60 in just over 11 seconds. ..When fully charged, the cells last for about 70 miles.
Nearly two feet shorter than a Mini hatch, the E-Up’s styling keeps the new {smiling} VW face … and has other strong family resemblances to the Golf and Polo. Inside the cockpit, the car has a three-plus-one seating arrangement, so that two adults can sit on the passenger’s side and a small person fits behind the driver. The current plans are that the E-Up will complement diesel and gas versions of the Up city car, which had been introduced at previous auto shows. No word on pricing, and availability in the United States…

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Audi is into electric cars after all. … Europe’s most strident champions of diesel technology and has repeatedly voiced its doubts on battery electric power and hydrogen fuel cell technology. But at the Frankfurt Motor Show on Tuesday, Audi unveiled the e-tron, an electric-car concept {and} carries four electric motors, one at each wheel (which makes it four-wheel drive, of course) and a horsepower equivalent rating of 313.
The e-tron uses lithium-ion batteries developed with Sanyo, and Audi says the car will be able to travel nearly 150 miles on a charge, even with the air-conditioning — actually, a heat pump — running. Accelerating from zero to 60 miles an hour will take 4.8 seconds. … Some prototypes are expected to be on the road next year and there will be “a small build” of series production models in 2012.

 

Wow, Bill Clinton would love that car. It's way nice!

 

Here is a picture exactly on thread from current issue of The Economist:

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So what do you all think of the compressed air vehicles? I guess these are coming to market soon.I know theres MDI in France and Zero pollution motors in the US.I believe there one and the same companys.

France- http://www.mdi.lu/english/index.php

US- http://zeropollutionmotors.us/

US site down for a makeover.

PS-Sorry I cannot post pics for some reason.I have contacted this site about it but have never got a reply back.

 

Have you heard of this new product called the MicroFueler? It is a home ethanol fuel production system, fed by discarded brewing yeast, old beer, algae and other waste products:

http://www.microfueler.com/default.aspx

 

Tata of India is interested in them. - Has purchased some rights.

I have seen an explainatory drawing, but forget where. They are complex with heat recovery etc. as I recal - quite complex and I did not fully understand in quick overview effort. - I am amazed they get any significant range even for city use but they seem to.

 

I am very skeptial of such claims, especially with their marketing effort. It is very hard to keep any limited feed stock system working well. I would like to see some independent test that ran for a month of their claimed variable feed stocks.