# Clever Car -- the future of automobiles

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Harmonic_Subset, May 5, 2006.

1. ### Harmonic_SubsetRegistered Senior Member

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Lithium ion batteries are currently the preferred choice for electric cars. However, there are still concerns about range and recharge rate.

Digital Quantum batteries might be able to outperform lithium ion batteries in both respects. At least, that's the meaning of the forward-looking statements made by the researchers.

When we can buy an electric car that will drive as far, and recharge as fast as a gasoline car can be refuelled, and cost about the same, then we can retire the internal combustion engine. If Digital Quantum batteries are aiming in those directions, then we should develop them.

3. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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"... capacitors be built at the nanoscale, with the electrodes placed just ten nanometers, or about 100 atoms, apart from each other. Such a setup, they say, would prevent the arcing phenomenon that is the main cause of drainage in larger capacitors. The main defense against arcing would be the same quantum effects that boost storage capabilities."

Put me down as a skeptic. Heat dissipation is? - that limits many nano scale devices and batteries are all about moving energy in and out, not just information. Very vague on just what these "quantum effects" are, Why no arching with greater E fields? Why no diffussion damage? But a great name for raising capital.

5. ### Harmonic_SubsetRegistered Senior Member

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I don't know. The news article compares theoretical performance of the Digital Quantum Battery, to the actual performance of the Lithium Ion Battery. It would be better to compare like with like, theoretical-vs-theoretical and actual-vs-actual, but I don't have the numbers.

Here is the paper describing the theory. I'm not entirely sure if it compares like-with-like either.

7. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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Thanks for the link. Basic idea is they make very small (nano scale) capacitors (using a point anode to further concentrate the electric field) and keep a vacuum between it and the larger cathode. (Larger so field emission does not occur there in the lower field.) Both the tiny size and the vacuum prevent avalanche ionization break down. The smaller volume has the desirable side effect of lower inductance and as article points out they do not have the rapid discharge limit of any chemical process that needs to get ions to the electrodes. I.e. these units may be idea for tiny devices that benefit from extremely rapid discharge (or charge) capacity when cost is not too important. Perhaps a portable X-ray unit, doctor / para-medic could easily carry? (Same vacuum for capacitors and beam to target)? Especially if you want to take X-ray motion picture of radio-opaque fluid flow in the body etc. - I don't think that can be done now.

I think the cost to produce will price them out of the car battery market, but could be wrong. One of my concerns is the tiny vacuum volume has terribly large surface to volume ratio - out gassing from the surface many soon destroy that vacuum, especially if many rapid cycles are used and heat the surfaces. They could, as part of the manufacturing process, de-gas all of the surfaces, but that too adds to the cost (time and heat required).

Summary: An interesting idea and in huge volume production even the micro-lithography required to make it might not be too costly - sort of like cost* of making a CPU I would guess (assuming the E-battery is a few cubic centimeters in size); but I don't see any way to get to that large volume. Something may replace the Li-ion battery for cars but I'm pretty sure this ain't it.

*Not including the design cost of the CPU circuit layout, just the making of it.

Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2010

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9. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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Even with 3 wheels, that is a very expensive motor scooter for in town use. Here are two of your choices in Brazil at about 1/5 the cost:

Price 4,190R$(~$2,328);

Four cycle, mono-cylinder of 109cm^3 with over head cams, air cooled, max torque 0.83Kg (force) meters (2.2x39.39/12 = 7.22)Foot pounds & 7.9HP, both at 7,500 rpm; 17 inch wheels; Semi automatic gears & foot petal operated dual disk brakes & electric start (marketed mainly for ladies) but has foot petal start too. _____ The one below is only electric for slightly more:

Price 5,290 R$(~$2,940); 2,000 Watts (electric motor & battery); Range = 60 to 80 Km; Top speed = 60km/h;
Three modes: High Torque (for hills), Economy (for max range) and "Comfort" (shorter trips with ease)

Note:In Sao Paulo's traffic either can go from A to B in about 40% less time.

Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2010
10. ### Harmonic_SubsetRegistered Senior Member

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Well, there are some differences between ordinary scooters and the hybrid 3-wheeler.

Hybrid 3-Wheeler:

- top speed is well over 60 mph, so you can drive this on the interstate and get 140 mpg fuel economy;

- some models have a wider front wheel base, and so require car insurance rather than motorcycle insurance; and

- its got style, and a scooter doesn't. Let's face it, style sells cars as much as lower prices. If you want to stand out and be a little different, but still drive a motorbike, then the gas-electric hybrid 3-wheeler is the way to go.

11. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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Two KERS {Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems} devices developed in Britain rely on storing the braking energy in rapidly spinning flywheels instead of chemical batteries.

One, made by Flybrid Systems of Northamptonshire in conjunction with transmission specialists Xtrac and Torotrak, is a pure mechanical system that uses a rotor spinning in a vacuum at 60,000 revolutions a minute. It is especially compact, weighing less than 18kg and is no bigger (in plan view) than a sheet of copier paper.

The other, developed by Williams Hybrid Power in Oxfordshire for the Williams F1 team, uses technology licensed from Urenco,...

In a recent endurance race, a Porsche 911 GT3 R hybrid racing car that used a Williams flywheel system capable of boosting output at the wheels by an extra 160 horsepower and weighing just 47kg (instead of a battery system two or three times heavier) achieved 25% better fuel economy than conventional versions of the car.

15. ### TruthSeekerFancy Virtual Reality MonkeyValued Senior Member

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15,162
Every technology is like this in the beginning. Countless examples. Less than a decade ago, a basic 42 inch LCD TV used to cost around $15,000. The same TV now cost around$300. Economies of scale and technological advancement always decrease the costs of production.

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17. ### lpgautogasRegistered Member

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Harmonic subset is very superb I appreciate for you.

18. ### FELICIERegistered Member

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Ich kaufte dem Auto vom Händler autokral;

VORSICHT beim AUTOKAUF bei AUTOKRAL nur Ärger und Probleme gehabt , warte bis Heute auf Garantie und Scheckheft für meinen Polo, Volkswagen erkennt das Auto nicht an da widersprüchliche Angaben über die Fahrgestellnummer bestehen.