Classic Western Medicine

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by wanneszinnig, Nov 15, 2007.

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1. birchValued Senior Member

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3,778
for instance, long-term cancer survivors that have become healthy again will tell you that it was a combination of traditional medicine or treatment along with alternative remedies such as herbs, healthier diet etc. also, there are people who have used acupuncture and it's helped them a lot. i don't know how it work but it seems to help some people that have not been able to relieve pain in any other way.

sometimes traditional medicine is not enough, depending on the type of illness you have. there are people who have died just using the standard programs for some types of illnesses such as for cancer treatment. this is because you also have to find a way to boost your immune system and some people ignore that. those who listen to their body are much more liable to survive than those who just strictly go with a program regardless of how it affects them. some people can only take some chemo, some people it can literally kill them. so it's a delicate dance and balance one has to do. strong herbs or foods with high antioxidant content is critical for health or getting over illness, especially for very serious illnesses that can't be just cured with a single pill or treatment.

it's also a lesson in how your body works and what it needs in order to be healthy period.

Last edited: Aug 14, 2011

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3. trucetheekerRegistered Member

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52
Foolish is a good word for you and before I leave you to "just get your damned vaccine!", I'll repoint you to Scobey's report, The Poison Cause of Poliomyelitis And Obstructions To Its Investigation. In printed form, there's 14 pages worth of reasons to "assume" a correlation between pesticides and polio which I suspect you have no interest in reading even the first page.

That's fine with me so excuse me if get on with other things.

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5. ashtynnberryRegistered Member

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4
well what this new doctor of yours going to do would be base on his 'theory' which is indeed logical and convincing(i have asthma too, less severe than yours though) however again its a theory so it would be unfair to say western medicine is a poison im sure its been saving your life for quite a long time now and so does others with asthma especially status asthmaticus. i hope it cures you cause eliminating the allergen is far better than taking drugs with random side effects, i always get tremors. but at the moment keep your inhalers handy.

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7. trucetheekerRegistered Member

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52
I fully stand behind my words and what's more I'm living them. If you want to see staying legal as grovelling, have at it. As an adult, these sorts of insults are beneath me. Perhaps when you've grown up, you won't feel the need to showcase your lack of intelligence and civility.

100 years?! Who'd have thought that they'd have recognised the fraud that is vaccination back in the dark ages!!! My point is that vaccination has been recognised as a fraud since it's inception and it's only because the all powerful medical establishment threw its weight behind it that it survived into the 20th century much less the 21st.

And finally, if you had read my last reply to you, you might have noticed quoted passages that explained where epidemics come from and where they disappear to. Follow any of the links that I painstakingly documented for you and you will see case after case of industry or physician induced epidemic as well as the sleight-of-hand tricks that they use to cover up their lies.

Not interested? No problem because the information is now linked and anyone with a strong sense of self preservation can stumble across it and follow it to their benefit.

8. leopoldValued Senior Member

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17,455
i just found it hilarious you would start by denying vaccinations and medicine in general then post the disclaimers you did.
i'm sorry but i'm not an idiot.
nor do i believe i'm "uncivil".
most of the "evidence" you posted is at least 60 years old, some over a hundred.
there is a very simple test to determine if your evidence is valid.
post mortem of polio victims.
if these victims do not have fatal traces of poisonous chemicals (arsenic, lead, mercury, etc ) then your evidence is invalid because that is the basis of it ( your evidence ).
sometimes that is all that matters.
i've bookmarked some of your links and saved some pages.

9. chimpkinC'mon, get happy!Registered Senior Member

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4,416
If you were talking to me and not Truce, I am all happy getting my vaccinations so I don't die of the 'flu.

I updated my pneumovax too this last year, so I can enjoy not getting more lung scarring...I used to have the regular trip to the hospital to camp in an oxygen tent.

I pop pills like a Pac-man.

An antihistamine cocktail, plus theophylline, three inhaled bronchiodilators, and three different psych meds.
Plus other random supplements.

When you save babies medically...well...you have to keep saving them. People are into heroic measures for widdle pwecious infants, they don't let people like us die anymore at birth. This may be why health in the broader western population needs more intervention...marginal babies live now and go on to be chronically ill adults.

Invest in pharmaceutical companies, my friend.

10. Fraggle RockerStaff Member

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24,690
That's because although pain is usually (or at least often) a symptom of a physical problem, in many cases all the patient really wants to do is alleviate the pain and not treat (or even diagnose) the underlying cause. Pain may be due to an injury that is being healed as fast as possible, or to an incurable condition, or to something that is healing by itself and merely needs patience.

The pain itself is merely the manifestation of signals transmitted along neurons. If we can block that transmission, we can make the sensation of pain go away. Many drugs--both traditional herbal and modern pharmaceutical--can perform that blocking, but often have troublesome side effects. Caffeine, for example, is a traditional herbal analgesic that works by constricting blood vessels, reducing the oxygen supply to nerve tissues and impairing their ability to perform their anatomical function of transmitting signals. But the obvious troublesome side effect of vasoconstriction is elevated blood pressure.

NSAIDs (non-steroid anti-inflammatory drugs) like aspirin are a modern scientific analgesic that work in ways I can't explain because I didn't take enough chemistry and biology classes in college. They too have their troublesome side effects, such as GERD (gastroesophageal reflux disease).

Acupuncture is another traditional remedy that does not use herbs and does not have any (so far) identified troublesome side effects. But since we don't yet know how it works it's conceivable that when we figure it out we'll discover some side effects. Sadly it appears that nothing in life is free.

The point is that if all you really want is to make pain go away, there are a number of ways to at least reduce it (in many cases) by merely focusing on the symptom (the pain) rather than the underlying cause.

11. chimpkinC'mon, get happy!Registered Senior Member

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4,416
Chronic pain can, of itself, cause depression...and if you can't get rid of the problem, deadening the pain is very useful indeed.

A slipped disc does not know the safe-word.

12. billvonValued Senior Member

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12,725
If you think that a premise is wise when they use it and foolish when other people use it - you may not understand what you are talking about.

Read the whole thing, actually. He lists a great many correlations between food intake and poliomyelitis. It does not list a conclusion. Indeed, under SUMMARY there is, ironically, a single word - OMITTED.

Were you to draw a conclusion based on the coincidences he lists, you would be guilty of being foolish as you have defined the term above. I could make a similar list and find a correlation between poliomyelitis and TV watching - but even if there was a correlation, it would not imply causation unless the underlying mechanism was understood (and tested.)

Here are a few you may be interested in reading:
=====================================

The quackery-related death of a 17-month-old girl has sent shock waves across Canada. No one aspect of the story is unusual. The scenario is a classic combination of cultural vulnerability, modern urban mythology and quackery.

Dead from malnutrition and pneumonia is Lorie Atikian. Eight months before her death on September 25, 1987, Lorie was a perfectly healthy baby. When she died she was nearly bald, covered with deep red rashes, and so emaciated that the paramedics thought they were being tricked by being given a doll to treat.

Lorie’s parents Sonia, 38, and Khochadour, 54, are emigrants from Lebanon and Syria. In addition to Lorie, the couple has two teenage children. Like many people these days the Atikian’s were concerned about modern food additives, pesticide residues, and drugs. Their cultural background may have made them a bit more vulnerable, but like most people they held positive attitudes toward “natural” food and medicine. Sonia became enamored with Gerhard Hanswille, an “herbologist.”

Gerhard Hanswille, 55, says that he learned herbology in Germany through self-study and books (Germany has a tradition of folk medicine that includes a great deal of Medieval herbalism). In 1972, Hanswille obtained a mail order doctoral degree in naturopathy from “Bernadean University” (BU) located at that time in Las Vegas, Nevada. BU, which was never approved or accredited to offer any courses, was closed down by the Nevada Commission on Postsecondary Education in 1976. It then moved to California where it operated for several years before eventually becoming “authorized” under the State’s liberal rules (Aronson, 1983). California has tried to close BU but has been blocked by its claim to being a religious school of the Church of Universology (Emshwiller, 1987).
. . .
Hanswille’s compelling vision of natural health made a convert of Sonia. When she became pregnant with Lorie in 1985 Hanswille convinced her to remain “pure” for the sake of the child. She testified that Hanswille promised to make Lorie a super baby. “That baby is going to be very different. Its going to develop without chemicals. Its going to be strong and pure…it going to be very special.” Hanswille convinced Sonia that vaccinations would “poison” her child, and that ultrasound examination would damage an unborn baby’s brain. He had Sonia tell her pediatrician that she would not be bringing Lorie in any more because the family was moving to California. Hanswille was described as “. . .like a doctor. . .surrounded by medicine and books. . . sure of what he was saying. He always had an answer.”

Hanswille advocated an organic, vegetarian diet. He sold the Atikians a special juicer for $400 alleging that their own juicer “burned the nutrition” out of fruits. Among the special products the Atikians purchased from Hanswille were a bottle of baby oil that cost$16, a bar of soap costing $7.40, and a 3 kg box of laundry detergent that cost$35.99.

When Lorie became ill she was treated with royal jelly, “cell salts” (homeopathy), and an herbal concoction brewed by Hanswille. He also treated Lorie with an electromagnetic “vitalizing” machine that “stimulates the blood” and has attachments such as an electrified comb that “livens up the hair.” Sonia Atikian testified that they became very concerned about Lorie’s condition but that Hanswille assured them that it was normal for clumps of her baby’s hair to fall out and not to worry if Lorie didn’t gain weight. Hanswille told Sonia that taking Lorie to a hospital would be like “holding a loaded gun to Lorie’s head and pulling the trigger.”

The Atikians were charged with failing to provide the necessities of life for their baby daughter (child neglect). Up until now Hanswille has not been charged with anything. He has angrily complained that he feels like “the accused” but denies that he did anything wrong. He says that he “cannot tell people what to do,” that it is up to the parents to make decisions for their children. The judge instructed the jury that it was all right for them to “vent your spleen” over the activities of Hanswille “and his ilk,” but neither he nor herbalism were on trial in the death of little Lorie.

On June 12 the Atikians were found guilty of child neglect. Sentencing is scheduled for July 6.
==================================

Age: 55
Hollymount, County Mayo, Ireland

Died (asthma attack)
July 9, 2001
A homeopath told her to give up her asthma medication. She later died of an asthma attack.
======================
Cameron Ayres

Age: 6 months
Fulham, west London, England

Died
May 1999
Cameron was born with a rare but treatable disorder, but his parents distrusted conventional medicine. A nurse/homeopath begged them to take him to a doctor, but they refused.
================
Sylvie Cousseau

Age: 41
Paris, France

Died
March 31, 2001
Sylvie was diagnosed HIV positive, but pursued alternative treatments for her disease including homeopathy, acupuncture and drinking her own urine. She eventually died of AIDS.
===================
Lucille Craven

Age: 54
Pelham, New Hampshire

Died (untreated cancer)
2000
Lucille concealed the diagnosis of breast cancer from her family. She secretly consulted a naturopath and took homeopathic remedies. She also used quack treatments like blood irradiation. Her cancer raged out of control and she died.
===========================
Isabella Denley

Age: 13 months
Kew, Victoria, Australia

Died (untreated epilepsy)
October 19, 2002
Isabella was prescribed medications for her epilepsy. Instead of using them, her parents consulted an iridologist, an applied kinesiologist, a psychic and an osteopath. She was being treated purely with homeopathic medication when she died.
===========================
Mahendra Gundawar & 6 others

Chandrapur, India

Three dead, seven blinded
December 14, 2007
Gundawar was a homeopath who sold a new tonic, recently introduced on the market, that was supposed to reduce fatigue. He himself died, along with several of his patients. Several others were blinded, and other cases occured elsewhere in India.
==========================
President Warren G. Harding

Age: 57
Palace Hotel, San Francisco, California

Died
August 2, 1923
Despite the misgivings of a physician, his personal homeopath let him do arduous tasks and speak in the heat. When he had a bout of food poisoning, the homeopath applied heavy doses of purgatives to flush out toxins. He died. No autopsy was done.
======================
Paul Howie

Age: 49
South Mayo, Ireland

Died (untreated cancer)
April 22, 2003
A natural health therapist & homeopath told Paul and his wife that he would die if he used conventional medicine. The treatable tumor in his neck grew to the point where he died of suffocation.
================================
Russell Jenkins

Age: 52
Southsea, Hampshire, England

Died (untreated wound)
April 17, 2007
After stepping on an electric plug, he self-treated the wound on his foot using honey on the advice of his homeopath. A diabetic, his foot became gangrenous. He died, but doctors said if he'd sought help just 2 hours earlier he could have been saved.
============================
Kira Jinkinson

Age: 11 months
Bloomsbury, Central London, England

Misdiagnosed gastroenteritis
October 22, 2000
Kira had an upset stomach. Her doctor used dowsing to choose a homeopathic remedy, claiming that geopathic stress patterns beneath her home were to blame. The baby was later found to be suffering from gastroenteritis. The doctor was disciplined.
============
Charles Levy

Patagonia, Arizona

Died
2001
He was injected with "bovine adrenal fluid" as a treatment for fatigue. He developed a gas gangrene infection and died. The family sued and settled out of court. The homeopathic board dismissed a complaint against the practitioner.
===============================

Age: 37
Los Angeles, California

Died (untreated cancer)
March 27, 1986
She rejected traditional treatments for her breast cancer, instead choosing homeopathy.
============================

You get the idea. Neither western medicine nor eastern medicine has all the answers. Taken together, they can be pretty useful though.

13. trucetheekerRegistered Member

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I didn't say you were an idiot AND you're entitled to your opinion.

I don't agree. There's every chance that trace elements of the poison would be found and no doubt would be found in all of us. A "fatal" amount would only be likely if death followed quickly after the onset of symptoms. Better to do an autopsy when the "disease" first appears to ascertain the level of poison that triggered the symptoms. After that, the body will have eventually eliminated, encapsulated or otherwise stored the poison out of harms way to prevent organ failure and death. Of course, getting a victim to agree to an early post mortem is slim.

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The problem with this whole idea is that post mortems are done by physicians who fully believe in the virus and vaccine myths. Tell them to do an autopsy on a polio victim and they will tell you the cause of death, not try to find out what caused the polio.

Excellent. It's a promising start.

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14. trucetheekerRegistered Member

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Yes, it is ironic that the summary was omitted. I would hardly call it a list of coincidences. It's more like good evidence that was not properly followed up by the authorities.

I read the lot and noticed the usual list of quacks and charlatans with the exception of the authorised medical doctors. MDs, herbalists, homeopaths and naturopaths are all too often focussed on curing the symptoms instead of removing the underlying cause.

MDs have a great track record of defeating the symptoms of cancer but because they don't remove the cause and because of the lethal nature of their treatments, any relief is short-lived.

Eastern medicine may have a place but is still caught up in the same symptom focussed methodology.

The only health science that strictly deals with the causes of disease or more to the point, the causes of health AND does not try to restore people back to health through treatments is Natural Hygiene.

NH recognises that you cannot poison someone back to health nor can you surgically remove the cause of disease. We also recognise that once the other professions have dwindled away your vitality through drugs, vaccines, surgery and a myriad of unhealthy lifestyle practices, you can reach a point where your body cannot restore itself to health. Real cancer is one of those situations.

Fortunately, many people who have been diagnosed with "cancer" don't actually have it and all that is required is to remove the causes of their ill health and the body will right itself. Unfortunately, the medical profession will at this point start removing tumors, limbs, breasts, etc followed by deadly radiation and chemotherapy, thereby, sealing in the ill health and the inability to recover. We follow them blindly down this path of death because they are all knowing and wise!

15. billvonValued Senior Member

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12,725
While misdiagnosis does sometimes occur, the risks of ignoring a valid diagnosis and proven treatment are severe (as referenced in the above cases of "death through homeopathy.")

We should follow them down that path with eyes wide open because western medicine is based on evidence rather than tradition or myth. If a treatment is not proven to cure more than it harms it is discarded.

16. firdroirichA friend of The FriendsRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
565
My partner is a licensed, practicing physician and often she tells me of situations at work - anyway, one particular story caught my attention.
A woman came in almost every two days asking to have a brain scan - she was convinced she had a brain tumour. She was 'passed' from
doctor to doctor as many didnt see any symptoms or reason to check, especially because the only reason she wanted the test done was because
her acupuncturist told her she had a tumour.

She eventually got referred to my partner, who immediately did the test, because her 'sheet' was full of so many other things done except this test.
Long story short, she did have a tumour and didnt have long to live.

17. AsguardKiss my dark sideValued Senior Member

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23,049
You have to be careful about these situations, yea sure this is a great story but there are probably 1000s of cases where the scans would have come back negitive.

There was a section in a book called "science of the disc world" about this where they talked about patens where none exist and there example was your name being written in raindrops. Freaky if it happened in front of you sure but if it was written in the time of tutankarmon its probaly would be missed.

Now there may be a flip side of this though, if the pt had walked into the acupuncurast complaining about head aches, disyness, personality changes, maybe nero symptioms and the acupuncurest had some experiance in the area they may well have known what it could be.

18. kevin9BannedBanned

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1
nice information you have to share with us. thanks for that

19. trucetheekerRegistered Member

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52
I cannot refute this statement. I fear that you might be confusing "proven" treatment with "approved" treatment.

You make this statement as though it could not be refuted. How many contrary opinions would be required to prove it incorrect? I offer this one for consideration which IMO argues that "evidence-based medicine" is a tool for protecting "territories" rather than providing the best care for patients.

Deconstructing the evidence-based discourse in health sciences: truth, power and fascism

20. billvonValued Senior Member

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12,725
A comment from that paper:

" . . .health sciences are colonised (territorialised) by an all-encompassing scientific research
paradigm – that of post-positivism – but also and foremost in showing the process by
which a dominant ideology comes to exclude alternative forms of knowledge, therefore
acting as a fascist structure."

I am reminded by a quote from George Orwell:

"It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else."

In other words, it is a nearly meaningless pejorative, as descriptive as "stupid." On the Internet it is a version of Godwin's Law - if an argument goes on for long enough, and gets emotional enough, the odds of someone using the word "fascist" to describe someone approaches one.

But in any case the paper concerns what they describe as the tyranny of evidence based medicine, a "process that is saturated by ideology and intolerance regarding other ways of knowing." There are two ways to interpret this:

1) "Other ways of knowing" refers to other desired outcomes (i.e. early death, prolongation of sickness, rapid spread of infectious disease) in which case it is a good thing that evidence based medicine avoids them.

2) "Other ways of knowing" refers to alternative methods of treatment, like eastern medicine (acupuncture, traditional herbal remedies, unconventional treatments etc.) It would certainly be bad if evidence based medicine did indeed exclude these forms of medicine based purely on their "oddness" or because they did not fit the "dominant scientific paradigm." We can disprove the author's thesis by seeing if any such forms of medicine ARE accepted in the evidence based system.

So the question becomes - does evidence based medicine consider complementary or alternative treatments? Apparently they do indeed. The Cochrane Collaboration is a group of volunteers who review results of randomized medical trials (i.e. the basis of all evidence based medicine.) As of 2005, the Cochrane group had reviewed over 145 complementary or alternative treatment studies, and found that about 40% had positive or likely positive results. Some (like the use of maggots for infection and acupuncture for pain and nausea) have indeed been implemented in western medicine because they have been proven to be effective. Others have not been implemented because they have been shown to be ineffective.

A comment on this from Dr. Andrew Vickers: "Contrary to much popular and scientific writing, many alternative cancer treatments have been investigated in good-quality clinical trials, and they have been shown to be ineffective."

So that issue - that western medicine excludes alternative treatments - is not valid. To use the phrase popularized by Mythbusters: that claim is busted.

21. Shadow1Valued Senior Member

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4,160
I agree, many traditional treatements (not only western) works very good for flue, head ache, stomach ache, unserious asma, etc... such things.
But you shouldn't rely on those when you're too sick.

22. Fraggle RockerStaff Member

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24,690
You don't seem to understand the scientific method at all. Assertions are not falsified by "contrary opinions." They are falsified by empirical or logical evidence that plainly shows them to be false.

Much of what you say on this website leads to the suspicion that, while you may be intelligent and well-read, you are not well-educated. You have some fundamental misconceptions about what science is and how it works. Because of this, some of your most strident comments, such as the question I quoted above, make absolutely no sense and come across as almost pure gibberish. Science is based on observation, reasoning, experimentation and peer review, among other things, not opinions.

Could you please, for the record, tell us right now what discipline your degree is in and which educational institution granted it, and/or any other pertinent credentials such as work experience? Thank you.
Evidence-based medicine is simply another term for medical research, theories and procedures derived by use of the scientific method. There are no "territories" in science. Everyone is free to participate.

Of course some people bring disrespect to themselves by violating the scientific method, and this becomes--quite reasonably!--an obstacle to their participation. The most common way to do this is to violate the Rule of Laplace: Extraordinary assertions must be supported by extraordinary evidence before anyone is obliged to treat them with respect. For example, a burn mark on one of billions of tortillas that is said to be the likeness of a biblical figure of whom no portraits are available for verification is not sufficiently extraordinary evidence to support the assertion that an illogical, invisible supernatural universe exists from which creatures and other forces interfere with the workings of the natural universe.
What the hell is the phrase "alternative form of knowledge" supposed to mean??? This is yet another example of the utter gibberish which comprises so much of your posts and is causing us to rapidly lose patience with you.

Knowledge is gained through observation, experience, learning and reasoning. The usual sources of the "alternative" forms of so-called "knowledge" that people try to sneak in on this forum are blatantly fallacious:
• Faith: I want this to be true so badly that I'll just go ahead and believe it without evidence.
• Instinct: I feel an urge to flee every time I see a large animal with both eyes facing forward, so it's a mistake to try to domesticate wolves.
• Authority: So many really nice people believe this that it must be true.
• Iconoclasm: So many old-fashioned people who don't respect me believe this that it must not be true.
• Conspiracy: "They" don't want us to know the truth so they made all this up, and millions of scientists all over the world are in on it. (This comes with the corollary that not one single scientist would love to be on the cover of Time magazine over the caption, "The brave man/woman who disproved science.")
• Crackpottery: I spent several weeks in my basement working on this and everyone I asked to peer-review it says it's crap, but I just know it's not.
The best and shortest definition of "fascism" I have ever seen is "resistance to transcendence." This precipitates out the Nazi overtones and rehabilitates it as a less loaded word. By this definition it's not resistance to all change, but only to transcendent change, such as the paradigm shift that the Nazis saw coming: the electronic revolution, the rise of communism, the merging of European with other civilizations, and of course the demise of the notion that Aryans (excluding Indians and Pakistanis) are superior.

From this perspective, in this instance the use of the word may seem valid to Trucetheeker and other confused, poorly educated iconoclasts. They believe that science is a cabal that represses their ideas because they would change the world's power structure, rather than accepting the fact that their core beliefs have already been peer-reviewed and falsified while some of the details of their form of medicine have been unremarkably accepted.
As I noted above, the valid ways of knowing are rather straightforward and uncontroversial. Observation, experience, learning and reasoning. I'd be interested in seeing an "other way of knowing" that does not fall into one of the common fallacies I described earlier. Wouldn't you?
Don't confuse him with the facts.

23. trucetheekerRegistered Member

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52
Fraggle Rocker, please keep your shirt on. I'm sorry to have offended you by using the "O" word but, in my simple way, I've come to realise that science, like everything else in life is subject to people's opinions. That those opinions are normally formed based on observation, reasoning, experimentation and peer review, among other things, still amounts to opinions because any given group of scientists may disagree after considering that evidence. The "peer review" BS is beyond a joke as is the amount of rubbish that gets published in journals and never retracted once disproven.

Nice trick - interchanging the words "medicine" and "science" as though they were one and the same. IMO (oops) science is where you test something in the laboratory before unleashing it on the public; medicine is where you test something on the public and then recall it if the lawsuits pile up too high.

To me, the meaning was quite clear. If it's not contained in the approved database, then it's an alternative form of knowledge. Not necessarily to be confused with alternative medicine.

It all sounds good but what I hear from you and others on this forum is that knowledge is secondary to doing battle for entrenched positions. You ignore the intent of a post and jump on terms such as "opinion" and "fascism" and go to great lengths to completely avoid the actual subject other than to write me off as an iconoclast.

I'm surprised that you didn't mention "homeopathy" or "herbal medicine" in this post but maybe it shows that you have paid a little attention.

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I would add one additional way of knowing:

• Question everything that you've been taught!