Clarifying when mods are entitled to delete posts

Discussion in 'SF Open Government' started by scott3x, Apr 7, 2009.

  1. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    I have yet to see any crime committed in a thread here. Is there some cabal of Jews selling boner pills or illegal cables boxes in a thread here somewhere?

    Or were you referring to threads where you are harping on and on about crimes committed by Jews and how evil all Jews are?
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  3. scott3x Banned Banned

    I think you're aware that her mistake is simply syntactical here.

    I don't believe S.A.M. has ever said that all jews are evil. If so, by all means, provide the evidence.
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  5. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Not at all. There is a troubling elision between opinion and reality in S.A.M.'s posts, and confusion of her statements on a subject with the subject itself is not a simple, nor syntactical error. It is a very serious error of content, and revealing to boot.

    What's telling is the asymmetry: earlier in the same sentence, she has no problem calling the opinions of others just that. Yet when it comes to her opinions, she's in such a hurry to assert validity that she blows right past an entire level of reference. It's a refusal to even aknowledge that her views are in the same basic category as those of others, made all the more telling by its casual, implicit nature. And it's not even that she considers her opinions correct (who doesn't?), but that she doesn't even recognize them as thoughts in the first place. Her speech is supposed to actually instantiate its subject: for her to say "Jews are committing crimes" is, to her, actually the same thing as actual Jews committing actual crimes, and so she expects others to react to the two things in the exact same way.

    See also the equation of boorish treatment she receives from Baron or Buffalo or whoever with America's Oppression of Islam, etc., etc., etc....

    Not interested. You can believe whatever you want; S.A.M. has already provided more than enough evidence, if you care to look for it.

    Not that I think S.A.M. really believes that all Jews are evil, but she says things to that effect all the time. What she's talking about when she refers to "the Jews" is more like a character in a personal fantasy of hers, than an actual set of people living on Earth. Much like the way many people refer to "Americans."

    Add it all up and you get bigotry: a person who is out for self-righteous emotional gratification, and so betrays their intellect in favor of an internal game where they simply define the contents of other peoples' thoughts, history, and the rest of reality, in whatever ways will result in the most gratification to them, right now. Then they go around looking for others to reinforce this game (either similar thinkers they can ally with to bolster their dream world, or antagonists who will fit into the "evil" category), and spend all day screaming at people and feeling really self-righteous about it. After all, they're liberating Palestine, or defending Islam, or something...
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  7. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

    I have a similar experience to you. I have been given 5 warnings, of which one of them was reversed, for "alleged" trolling. Usually in response to a posters' insult. I have NEVER had any problem with any other moderator on this forum. Not only this, the PMs I have received from this moderator have always been insulting.

    The moderators of this forum should reconsider whether they wish to have such a biased moderator on their forum.
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Why not give S.A.M. the same respect we show other people?

    One of the problems of running a theocracy is that the religion and government are identified similarly.

    The leap from "Jews are committing crimes" to "all Jews commit crimes" or whatever it is appears to be yours.

    And as to the boorish treatment she receives from trolls? In the years before you registered, it was the war that transformed the focus of this site's non-scientific population. Before the war, our primary religious arguments were between hardcore Christian zealots and pretty much everyone else. Between 9/11 and the Iraq invasion, anti-Muslim bigotry erupted, to the point that members were calling for genocide, and in one infamous occasion, an exception was made for any Arab women hot enough to fuck.

    It was anti-Muslim propaganda and a Muslim propaganda response that led to our first specific policies about promoting hatred.

    And despite our rules against goading and flaming, against deliberately mocking names in order to cause bad sentiment, anti-Muslim trolls have enjoyed considerable liberty, with their posts being deemed valuable contributions to the community while pointing out the hypocrisy of a torture advocate blasting terrorists for torturing people has been decried as a ban-worthy offense.

    Those of us who have watched the situation over time have seen a hardening of positions. Apparently, this is only unacceptable if you're a Muslim.

    And in the current debate of international politics, suggesting that Israel's Judaic theocracy could possibly commit crimes by bulldozing people's homes, attacking the enemy from behind human shields, or bombing schools is somehow considered inappropriate.

    So right now people can go out of their way to trash Islam and Muslims, and any response, whether rational or simply in kind, is pretty much unacceptable. And among the moderators, a fair amount of furious screaming is required in order to gain even the slightest concession to reality.

    And, frankly, if you want to play the role of the idiot—

    "I have yet to see any crime committed in a thread here. Is there some cabal of Jews selling boner pills or illegal cables boxes in a thread here somewhere?

    Or were you referring to threads where you are harping on and on about crimes committed by Jews and how evil all Jews are?

    —that's entirely up to you.

    Syntax is a weak presence here. Very often we must ask ourselves if we're reading the point correctly. S.A.M.'s statement about Jews committing crimes? Hell, it's easy enough to figure out what that means. Between Sciforums members, grocery clerks, friends, neighbors, family, and even the nice lady I talked to at the Public Utilities District office the other day, none of them have perfect syntax. I'm always trying to figure out what the string of words offered means. And no, it's not particularly difficult, especially considering how much practice I get.

    And no, I'm not unique in that.

    But when it's S.A.M.? Well, she's a dark-skinned Muslim female of Indian descent. Obviously, she doesn't deserve the same respect we show other people every day.

    Really, treat your bank teller that way. Or the grocery clerk. Or the nice lady at the PUD office. See how far it gets you.
  9. scott3x Banned Banned

    I'd read your post before Tiassa and thought it to be pretty good; I expected someone to counter it and then I might have responded to the counter. But no one ever did; and now what you've said is more relevant than ever. So I think I'll finally publicly commend you for it

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  10. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    THANK YOU. THANK YOU! I bloody notice it too and I am so glad someone who is a mod is acknowledging this. I see it all the time here and its almost done as if sport. I have never on these boards noticed this kind of CONSTANT bigotry towards a single group of posters. Its wrong and that's all I have to say on the matter but finally I see there is someone else who has also noticed that kind of bullshit.

    and by the way when it comes to SAM's or Diamonds posts this is not a matter of syntax they are being deliberately twisted to make her look intolerant which is crap.
    Last edited: May 29, 2009
  11. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Well yes she does ignore content or certain questions, she's done that with me too. I know sometimes its hard to include a nation that is just as interfering like England for example and only focus on the States but this doesn't make the States any less guilty.

    I am not trying to say SAM is an example of objectivity, she even has admitted that when it comes to certain issues she isn't objective at all but she isn't the only one who lacks objectivity and to point her out as if she's the only one isn't fair.
  12. leopold Valued Senior Member

    i'm wondering if most of it comes from having to deal with others here.
    she sees the same crap from others so why can't she do the same thing?

    the really bad part is that she is consistent in regards to the west.
    i seriously believe her tongue would ignite if she said anything positive about the US.

    sorry about the deletion but i had to.
  13. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Well I don't know, I mean I don't know if its because of what others do or if she has her back up from having to defend issues that concern Muslims.

    I doubt SAM has purely a negative feeling towards the West, but for argument sake so what if she does? I think the issue here is are Muslim posters being constantly singled out for abuse. There is enough negative rhetoric about Islam to go around that's for sure. I think I would be offended too if I were a muslim on these boards. It must be frustrating to be constantly called a liar or a terrorist or anti-semite or having ones religion denigrated for sport.

    I also have a love hate relationship towards the States (not the west). I mostly have problems with the States because I think they are no longer living up to their values which are good values, but this is a different off topic point.
  14. leopold Valued Senior Member

    Last edited: May 30, 2009
  15. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

    It seems as if every single post of mine is deliberately twisted and manipulated for the purpose of demonization of either me personally, or Muslims in general. I have come to the point of having to put disclaimers at the beginning of my post or at the end to either explain my view or forsee any possible manipulations of my posts. Yet my posts are still deliberately misquoted, and taken out of context to perpetuate false and racist stereotypes.

    I have openly been called a both a liar and a terrorist. I have asked for proof for the posters issuing the accusation. No proof has ever been brought forward. Furthermore, I come across posts where some posters attempt to fabricate fake stances of what I supposedly stand for as a model Muslim which all Westerners and Atheists should hate. Commenting that I am a real Muslim, whom is evil, while those Muslims who are good are false Muslims. I asked this poster to prove form his posts that I have ever taken such stances, and instead I met with racist epithets against Arabs in specific, and Muslims in general, with particular emphasis on Islam's prophet. All the result of me asking proof from my posting history for the stances he claimed I stood for.

    What I want the moderators to do is to take accusations of declaring someone a murderer or terrorist very seriously. If these accusations are not proven, the poster issuing these accusations should be reprimanded. These personal attacks are meant to curtail debate and induce childish mud-slinging. Something everyone on this forum can agree is contrary to the purpose of this forum.
  16. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Oh so if blacks were in the news then it would be appropriate to treat blacks as if they didn't belong? Then we would have free reign to treat them badly etc.
    Do I understand you correctly? I mean is this how you judge people?
    There are no individuals just everyone lumped into their respective groups? Sam is diamonds and diamonds is Scie and they are muslim and muslim are in the news therefore...what? Jews maintain a low profile? Where on this forum? What does jews, muslims and christians have to do with ill treatment of our members on this site?

    Maybe based on the news you would be ready to advocate rounding up all muslims in the U.S and just putting them in prison or deporting them and get it over with. I mean why not? They're all liars, deceitful and innately violent right? I mean for christ sake why should we allow them free reign in our society when they're just a bunch of backward Allah loving miscreants?

    This is sad. I think its sad that I have to write a post like this to an intelligent person like yourself on a forum like this that praises itself as the 'intelligent' community and proponents of rational logical thinking.
    Last edited: May 30, 2009
  17. Bells Staff Member

    There would come a point where even the most patient would respond to the abuse, insults and accusations. To be quite honest with you, I think Sam has too much patience.

    Well the West has been consistent in its abuses.

    What makes you think she does not?

    You have to look at it from her perspective. She is a Muslim Indian woman living and working in the US. And because of the laws in place in the US at the moment, she would be singled out, look at as if she were a murderer, treated and abused by every day people because of her religion. As I said, she has more patience than she should have. And every single day she reads about how the US and other Western countries are either supporting oppressive regimes who commit human rights abuses for political and logistical reasons (*cough* Saudi Arabia *cough*) while commiting human rights abuses themselves (*cough* Gitmo *cough*). While all this goes on, she is lectured, berated and abused because she is an Indian and a Muslim.

    Any problem in India, people on this forum blame her for it and demand what she's going to do to change it. When she acknowledges that problems exist, again, she is abused and insulted for it because she is Indian. She, at least, acknowledges the problems. Many Westerners, either through patriotic feelings or because of their defensive nature, either deny a problem exists or attack others about their abuses.

    Now, place yourself in her shoes. You're telling me you wouldn't react in a similiar fashion?

    She points out the hypocrisy of the West because the hypocrisy exists. She points out the horror that occurs with the treatment of the Palestinians by the Jews, because the horror exists. She views regime change as being something that should be instigated by the people living in that country, and should not be forced upon the populace by force from other countries who have something to gain from a regime change. Gee, how horrible of her. She should be burned at a stake!

    There is a distinct anti-Muslim rhetoric on this forum. And it is made personal. I have had many, many, disagreements with Sam about the human rights abuses in some countries and how it should be dealt with. But the difference between many other members on this forum and I is that I do not hold her personally responsible for such abuses. Why? Because she is not responsible for it. But others seem to think that because she is a Muslim, then she is not only to blame, but should be held accountable for all of the crimes committed by Muslims and Indians around the world. She has been racially abused and insulted because she is Indian. She has been abused and insulted because there are people who call themselves Muslims committed acts of terror. Somehow, people on this forum view Sam as representing every single Muslim on this planet.

    As I said, she has way more patience than she should. Because if I were her, I'd have told you all to go and fuck yourselves and die in a fire a long time ago.

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  18. leopold Valued Senior Member

    it would be appropriate to discuss all options and angles of those news stories.
    i'm positive that some on this board would feel that blacks didn't belong.
    yes, i judge people by their actions. is that a problem?
    sometimes you can lump them all together, sometimes not. depends.
    they are all muslims. now what?
    ill treatment? you mean the PM diamondhearts got from skin?
    the phrase "a warning" was translated into a language that diamondhearts understood.
    i see nothing wrong with that.
    uh, maybe because they aren't all guilty?
    you are a dishonest poster lucy. you know full well i deleted the post.
    because they are human beings with free will, and who cares if they love allah?
  19. leopold Valued Senior Member

    whose fault is that bells?
    muslims have been at the very core of some ugly shit recently.
    there is absolutely no difference between "the west" and "muslims" in this regard.
  20. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    I am not being dishonest I was speaking generally not referring to a deleted post, calling muslim members here liars and deceitful is in full swing.

    Some may feel blacks do not belong would you say then that its ok to attack blacks on this site simply because they are black?

    You judge people by their actions, does this mean you judge sam and diamonds based on the actions of muslims you hear about in the news? What goes on in the news is appropriately discussed on these forums all the time.

    How and when is it appropriate to lump people together on a forum like this when posters post independently of each other and have differing opinions?

    By ill treatment I meant the general antagonism and hostility being doled out towards our muslim posters, I didn't mean anything specific. The phrase issued to Diamonds was not a translation of 'warning' it was a warning that began with to 'my Assalam Alaikum'. Which is obviously patronizing considering its in the context of a warning.
    Last edited: May 30, 2009
  21. leopold Valued Senior Member

    i would imagine muslims are liars like everyone else is.
    when in connection with social groups, that sort of thing.
    but yet these same muslims can dole out antiwestern antagonism.
    nothing specific mind you.
    i wouldn't know. i didn't commit the crime nor did i receive a warning.
    here is what the phrase means:
    take your pick.

    why has this conversation centered on me all of a sudden???

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  22. Bells Staff Member


    Are the Muslims on this board responsible and deserving of the abuse and racist diatribe they are subjected to because some Muslim on the other side of the world decides to do something bad?

    What you are basically saying is that because Sam is a Muslim, she is somehow at fault of the actions of other Muslims around the world. Tell me, are you, as an American, personally responsible for the abuse committed by American soldiers at Abu Grahib and Gitmo? The answer to that would be no. So why is Sam and the other Muslims on this board somehow held to a different standard and called "terrorists", "jihadists", and a plethora of other choice terms?


    So because they are Muslims, they are somehow in the same social group as over 1 billion other Muslims around the world and it is therefore acceptable to lump them all together and they can be open to abuse by other posters on this forum?

    Would you view a Muslim from some remote tribe on the African continent who don't even have access to electricity as being somehow connected or in the same social group as the "terrorists" who are committing the terrorists acts?

    Does that mean we can start wailing on ex servicemen and women who post here because they are somehow "in connection in social groups" to the soldiers who are in Iraq and Afghanistan and who have committed gross acts of abuse? Even though these posters have never done anything bad but are decent and honourable people?

    Ah yes. But what they "dole out" is not personal, is it? The criticise the "West". They don't attack and abuse (sometimes racially) individual posters because of their religion, race or because of where they are from, do they? But Sam is personally attacked and somehow held responsible for every single bad act by a Muslim or Indian in the world. An Indian in Canada commits murder, somehow some posters demand an explanation from Sam. A Muslim commits murder, again, Sam is almost accused and explanations are demanded of her. The same applies to other Muslims on this board.
  23. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    Last edited: May 30, 2009

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