City Revives Paddling, sees major improvement in Behavior

I didn't make "the general statement". To be honest, I thought at first that your misrepresentation of my post might be deliberate, and my careful bulletproofing later was designed to corner you. But if you are just misreading English and failing to follow arguments, there isn't much I can do.

Either that, or you have learned that when someone is talking about people who exist, generalizing their statements to a bunch of other people is error.

And more to the point, misses a major part of the argument - which is that the people who advocate this kind of punishment for children have to demonstrate its benefits. The default should not be hitting schoolchildren, unless proven bad.

We do have some evidence, including anecdotal here from defenders of "spanking", that there is at least some visible downside to hitting children as a punishment for misbehavior. The describers of the upside have shown little willingness or ability to take these debits into account, or even recognize some of them.

 

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Look, I'm not stupid. But posts don't always come across the way posters hope they will. I struggle with it all the time.

The way the post read sounded as though you generalized the "Hitter" as necessarily sadistic.

That not being your intent, we can move on. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your intent.

I don't think "benefits" is the right term.

You see, the problem arises with those kids that seem particularly resistant to encouragement, explanations or teaching.

This is logical.

I think that may be because they feel that the results outweigh the bad.

If there is a negative to the punishment, it may be as fleeting as the result. Others claim that spanking has fleeting results.

Additionally, there are negative results from ANY kind of punishment.
Where are the lines drawn as to how much negativity a child can handle? Since so many children are very different in personality and responses, can lines even be defined? Can others judge what's appropriate for children that are complete strangers to them?

 

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Uh, referring to me are we?
Yeah, I was one of those hard headed children that all that mumbo jumbo didn't work on. I listened to those spankings though. Especially the one time my father spanked me with a fly swatter. Did it hurt? NO! A feather would have done the same job. Did it degrade me, make me feel less, insecure, etc.? No. The mere fact that my father was so disappointed in me that he "spanked" me woke me up!! I was ashamed for what I had done, for disappointing him.

I have never felt less, degraded, insecure, or anything of sorts resulting from a spanking. I knew I did wrong. My mother will tell you she could talk to me until she was blue in the face. What was her other saying? In one ear and out the other. Did I ever repeat the same mistake in which I got the punishment? No. I did, however, invent new ways to get into "trouble".

I do not abuse my children. I am not nor have I been in trouble with the law. I am a well respected person in my community and will find few that could say bad about me.

So, stop talking about me, will ya?

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Actually, I had no idea you had been spanked.

I was beaten pretty badly as a kid, though. Once had a knitting needled jammed through my arm...
Right arm. All to show for it is a tiny scar at the top of the bicep.

It didn't wake me up any. If anything, it made me more withdrawn as a kid.

 

Totally messing with you Neverfly. In reference to you talking about me.

Spanking or abuse? There again is the gray area.

Honestly, before I was adopted at the age of 8, was beaten too many times to count. Maybe that's where the hard headedness came from.

Here was the difference. Before I was adopted, I had no idea what the beating was for. Sometimes there was no reason. No one talked to me about why it was happening, what I did wrong, etc. It was often out of the blue, even in drunken stupors. After I was adopted, there was a difference. I was sat down, talked to, grounded, etc. Spankings were the last resort. After the spanking, I was left to reflect on what I had done. I was talked to again. I was never in fear of my life or put in severe pain as was prior to my adoption. Huge difference.

 

Indeed.

Plus, much depends on the nature of the child.

 

You are right. It isn't a gray area. They are two seperate things. When one is done properly, it can work. Abuse is a totally different matter.

Not all parent's can be trusted, you are right again. Yet, as you put it, there are some that can be.

There are arguments for and against, Bells. You clearly have your opinion. Now that it is out there, I was both abused and spanked. My opinion? When done properly it can be effective as a last resort, in a calm manner. No bodily injury should occur. This is my opinion. I personally grew up with it. It worked with me when all else failed.
I hate abuse. I'm a hundred percent against it. I was abused severely prior to my adoption. Despite my experiences, this is my opinion.

 

The proper method?

This is an assertion we hear time and again. What, exactly, is the proper method of spanking a child?

What does violence as a disciplinary method teach the child about rules, obedience, and conformity?

What does it teach the child about the parents?

Freud suggested that it is not necessarily rules, or fear of punishment that keep people in line. That is, if murder was suddenly legalized, who among us would simply start slaughtering people for the hell of it?

That suggestion aligns well with evolutionary outcomes. The human endeavor is strongest in a cooperative context. Human beings are social creatures, surviving not only by our numbers or physical attributes, but by our ability to show one another compassion and sympathy. Charles Darwin himself affirmed that, "if the misery of our poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin".

So it would seem that in exploiting fear of violence and pain as a means of instruction, we are, in fact, protesting evolutionary outcomes of the human endeavor.

But, hey, it's certainly convenient. In the short term, that is. And why would we wish to worry ourselves with the long view? We're not clairvoyant, after all. Ask any scientist. Predicting results is so obviously mysticism; they will chide you for being so naîve as to think there is any reliable method for prediction about their tangled, superstitious art.
____________________

Notes:

Darwin, Charles R. The Voyage of the Beagle. New York: P. F. Collier & Son, 1909-14. Bartleby.com. April 24, 2010. http://www.bartleby.com/29/

 

As I stated earlier, the way my adoptive parents administered it, it was effective. I wasn't in fear. They never taught me about violence. I clearly understood what was happening. But as Bells pointed out, not all parents do that. For that I agree. Not all can be trutsted to do it in the manner that I experienced when adopted.

I trusted my adopted parents. I never saw them as violent people. In fact, it was clear that fighting was not accepted, nor causing harm to another person mentally or physically. A spanking was a clear understanding that one had really crossed the line. That I had broke the rules and there were consequences when all other forms of punishment doled out had no affect. Yeah, I was that stubborn.

It will seem that I flip flop on this issue. My stance is that there are children who do not nor will ever have need for a "spanking". Some you can simply look at and they just know they messed up. Some, just a simple talking will suffice. Some have to go to the level of having privileges taken away and that's enough for them to see the error of their ways. Then you have some like me that it takes a spanking for them to finally get the picture after all else fails.

It wasn't the fear of punishement that I did behave. If that was the case, I would never have had a spanking. It was more of a wake up call. I am not saying that all those who get spanked feel like or learned like I did. For my parents, this worked. Honestly, I wonder what kind of person I would be had they not spanked me. Probably wild and in trouble. My parents should have passed out blue in the face for all the talking, guiding, reasoning they have tried to do. Hell, just thinking of it, I'm calling them in a few hours and thanking them for the excellent job they did in raising me, spankings and all.

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A very high percentage of that last category share something like your history with abuse.

The question of which is cause, which effect, is a legitimate one.

If your experience is like mine, you have seldom if ever heard this story: "For years as a child I was in the care of people who refused to spank me, who never did anything but talk reasonably and discipline firmly and consistently by circumstance or natural consequence, so I was never spanked and I never learned anything - then I was adopted by people who knew how to spank, and how to get through to me by physical punishment, and so I finally did learn how to behave and quit getting into trouble. I'll always be grateful to them."

 

A fairly simple question

So, then, what did the spankings teach you about where the line you crossed actually was, or why it was drawn there?

 

and who has the right to tell me how to parent my children? agian you are attacking parents who spank they arent attacking you for not. your telling me how to parent my child im not tell ing you

yes i did.. if i didnt what other option am i missing? please inform me ill add it as in my scenario it still wont work

taking toys away from some children does nothing they will just get another toy. are you going to take every single toy away? even then somehave a great imagination their shirt could be a magic shirt to teleport them around. IE taking toys away wont work.

they are human beings yes but they dont have the same rights as an adult.
and yes they do have fewer rights than an adult.. can a child drink? can a child drive? can a child smoke? can a child fly alone? can a child buy a gun?, no they cant. but an adult can if I use your mindset then a child can do all these things. they have less rights than an adult as they should..

read above. But to add to that, under your "adults and children have the same rights" a child should beable to drive and buy a gun. and drink. soo since they ahve the same rights give your 2 year old a loaded gun as an extreme example. who is going to get shot first you or the child, they dont know what the gun is capable of. if adults and children have the same rights then why can you legally marry a 10yea old? they have the same rights dont they.

So far this debate has not focused on the premise I would like to present, that spanking is not abusive nor has it shown to be effective. We are currently debating human rights, and of course children have different rights than adults; however, that premise does not necessarily apply to the topic of spanking. I mean to distinguish between spanking adults and children merely because the topic of conversation is meant to be focused specifically on children because they are the targeted group of individuals, becuase I am not aware of any group of adults that faces spanking as a form of consequence.

First, it is essential to define "assault" and continue the debate from there. Furthermore, it is important to differentiate between physical and emotional assault. By questioning whether it is unacceptable to assault an adult and not a child, it is assumed that spanking qualifies as a form of assault or inappropriate physical contact. My premise relies on the arguement that spanking does not qualify as a form of assault because it does not cause long term physical harm. It may, however, be correlated with emotional strain depending on the situation. Therefore it is irrelevant whether spanking is abusive to adults because we are talking about children.

read above

and the parents of that school think it should be ok

thats not our place to say

1) "Spanking" an adult is deemed assault. Be it with a hand or paddle or belt or whatever a person uses to do the "spanking".[/QUOTE]

2) "Spanking" a dog is deemed animal cruelty. Be it with a hand or paddle or belt or whatever a person uses to do the "spanking".[/QUOTE]

3) "Spanking" a child is not deemed assault or cruelty towards that child. You can use your hand, paddle or belt and it would not be deemed assault.

Why is it illegal in the first two but not the third? Why is it illegal to spank an adult or even a dog, but not a child? Why does an adult and a dog have more protection at law than a child does against spanking?[/QUOTE]

read above weather you like it or not they do have differnt rights thats been proven and shown in many many many different ways

No, they have a mental disorder and even if you explain to them why some will not understand why that is a whole different subject

no i would not, unless it was direct family my brothers/sisters parents

no i wont because odds are if im sick i will know what i have if i dont get better in the time i think it should take i will go to the doctor either way thats irrelivent. studies have show one thing im proof of the other.

The teacher who spanked the deaf child for not listening should have her credential revoked, you cant punish the child for not listening when her body physically wont allowe her. and exactly what long term effects have you had that came only and directly from getting spanked by your 3rd grade teacher?

spanking a child as the childs parent is differnt than having someone outside the family spank them. studies have shown lots of things and for a % are right your not looking at the % that are wrong im looking at both your only looking at one.

as for studies unless your a psychologist you cant debate this nor can i. i gaurentee if you talk to one they will not ever say this study has shown 100% of the children had long term problems.. you and i can quote the exact same studies and say studies have shown that there is no long term effect from spanking. because in studies some patients do have effects and some dont

as for that school. i would not let a teacher spank my child and i can assume you wouldnt either right now were are just argueing opinions and it obviously wont go anywhere

 

So at what point do you think society should intervene. See, the way you state this above, it is as if you have a rule - No one can tell what I can't do. But I am guessing you would support interventions with parents who beat their kids with barbed wire. So the issue is not 'who has the right' but where is the line. Unless you really would call ANY parental punishment a private issue the government should never interfere with.

 

Let's look at it the other way. What if we were telling you that you MUST spank your children for certain offensives.

Then what?

 

There are rules that demand parents take certain actions. For example,
you must feed your children. If you don't they will be taken away from you. At least if the state figures it out.

Do you think the state should never intervene?

And, obviously, I would be against the specific state intervention demanding that parents spank their children for certain offenses.

So we have a situation where the state, right now, demands that parents do certain things and not do certain things. If you think the state should never do this, let me run some extreme situations by you.

My point is that most people are going to agree the state should intervene, but will have different ideas about when. So an argument based on the state never intervening is a poor one.

 

I'm not arguing anything. I'm showing you how foolish your position is in trying to tell others what is right and wrong.

 

But you didn't do that. You need to make an argument to do that. In fact, your previous post implicitly made an argument but a poor one.


But let me see if I understand your position: no one should tell others what is right or wrong. The state should never interfere.

Is that it?

 

It's the case of the usual up and up of any punishment scenario. Eventually, people will overuse it, and then cease to be afraid of it.
I've personally seen public canings in Singapore, and I think it's effectiveness lies in its public humiliation and rarity. Needless to say, I would not condone it due to the devastating effects it would have on any child.