Circumcision is a crime now in Germany

That does not apply to me. I resent that there was a part of me I never knew about. As a single man, this part of my body is central to my recreational activities. How dare they take it away due to irrational religious reasons and the secular justifications that are really just anti-sex in origin.

 

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I notice you you put "ideally" in parenthisies. Yes, ieally, we are the government. But, sadly, operationally, we no longer are. No where is this true on the planet any more. This is the over riding problem. If we had a true federalized systems, where the majority of decisions that affected peoples daily lives were enacted and carried out at the local level, then yes, the "government" would be us.

But let's be honest, it isn't. The world is in a state of corporate fascism. The global elites seek to control every aspect of our lives, from what we think, to what we eat, to what we watch and do for enjoyment. The reality paradigm is not a local one, but it is becoming a world wide grid of control by far off power barons of control. The "government" as you say, is far from being us. Make no mistake, it is them. We have little to no control over how the farmer manages his livestock. Only a fool would believe otherwise.

The people of the states of New York, California, Texas, Wyoming, Alaska, etc. have no interest in the covert activities to get the United States federal government involved in yet another war (in Syria), and yet the military industrial Federal government STATE complex will do it anyway. Anything the STATE can do to strip power away from the basic unit of political power, that being the family, is a move that the political elites are in favor of. If that means legalizing abortion (reducing the size of families) so be it. If it means taking parental control away from parents, so be it. It has nothing to do with protecting children, and everything to do with setting a precedent of the State be the primary guardian of the child. It is sick, especially when there is no really compelling reason for it.

In the United States, with parental permission, I've seen kids as young as two get their ears pierced. I've seen kids as young as fourteen get tattoos. When the state starts messing around in different ethnic groups cultures just to assert it's power over the family, it is a terrible precedent.

 

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German law doesn't consider a fetus to really have rights until the second trimester, so you can generally have abortions in the first trimester but not later (unless there's some sort of medical emergency).

 

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I think according to some sacred text some where or another, you need to be circumcised to be among the "chosen." lol

I think they are worried that when the aliens come to help save the earth of people who have heeded their ancient warnings on how to remain civilized and clean, they won't be among those who are saved from the next roasting deadly Carrington effect, pole shift, meteor strike, flood, etc.

(Probably also why the governments no longer want people circumcised. There are already enough people for the ET's to rescue and repopulate the earth with. Less circumcised males mean more women for them after the cleansing of the planet.

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)

 

Then isn't that your real objection, not this particular ruling? Where do you draw the line? Can a parent cut off a child's arms for religious reasons? How about castration because they want him to sing falsetto in the opera?

 

Whether or not one considered it "mutilation" would be pretty culture-specific. In the USA, where about half of new-born babies are circumcised, many would regard it as little more than a style choice. Both circumcised and non-circumcised people are common, so either choice would be seen as no big deal. In Europe, where it's unusual for anyone who isn't Muslim or Jewish to be circumcised, most people think of it as mutilation. I could see how an ex-Muslim or Jew in Germany would be pretty upset that he had something so unusual done to his penis without his consent, since it would probably leave him feeling like more of a freak.

I suspect that most people would consider it mutilation to clip the earlobes off a child for cosmetic reasons, but probably wouldn't if they came from a society where people commonly did it. My point here is that asking people at sciforums if they feel mutilated probably isn't very relevant to how a german would feel.

 

I think we need to draw the line some where, don't you? Here is as good a place as any since there is nothing wrong with circumcision, in fact, as has been scientifically proven, it has some benefits in some cases. This is a profoundly personal and culture choice.

Personally, I've always been in favor of many more extreme parental choices I'd rather not get into. But if the LOCAL community wanted to pass this law, I would have nothing against it, they know what is best for their community. However, some far off government deciding for some localized group what is best for them and their customs? That is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.

 

It has killed people before, and it can reduce sexual function, to say nothing of one's personal sense of bodily integrity, which can affect mental health.

 

man that's so backward and lame, like most replies on this thread, fraggle just said that it's medically beter, wikipedia cites loads of research done that shows that being circumcised is more hygenic and improves sexual experience(although common sense is enough for that, unless your foreskin is more sensitive than your tip :shrug

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. and i'm sure that since medieval times there were (and still are) medical problems treated by adult circumcision, so why not circumcise everybody as children when hey won't remember its pain or complain about not needing i.
i mean seriously, i miss that tube that extended from my bellybotton when i was a kid too, and hate my parents and the medical team for removing it, it's an interesting part of my body i have the right to play with

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anyway, to be honest the whole argument is pathetic, move along now all of you, let it die in piece, and the germans, well i don't know what's going on in their heads..

 

Maybe I don't give a shit about hygiene, maybe I enjoy bad hygiene, that's my right.

I'm not against treating legitimate medical problems by circumcision.

Your umbilical cord falls off naturally.

 

Rubbish has nothing what so ever to do with goverment interference, has everything to do with the rights of autonomy, the rights of an indervidual to MAKE THERE OWN CHOICES. If a 16 year old or above CHOSES to have it done that's THERE choice, you have no right to ABUSE A CHILD just because you gave birth to it, the goverment DOES have a responsibility to protect children from that sort of abuse

 

Yes, it does interfere with your freedom of choice. But so what? Fuck your freedom if by freedom you mean the freedom to cuts off parts of your kid without medical necessity.

 

The study that people are citing about circumcision reducing the chance of getting HIV is deeply flawed. And even if you believe the study, the effectiveness is being misreported. The actual reduction in the absolute decrease in HIV infection was only 1.31%, not 60%. Compare that with condoms, which show an absolute decrease of 80% when used properly.

http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2012/05/when-bad-science-kills-or-how-to-spread-aids/

 

No, it's not a weak argument. It's the same argument used for vaccinations against tetanus, for example - a slightly dangerous medical procedure, injecting foreign bodies into the bloodstream, done to children without their consent at the behest of their parents. Many dental procedures fall into this kind of category, as well - including cosmetic ones.

It's a reasonable argument, in other words. Reasonable people can weigh the many and complex factors, and come to different decisions.

No, it's not absurd. Even if you look just at the replies in this thread you will see some evidence that German hostility to Muslims and Jews is a contributing factor in such laws. If you consider the politics in Germany the situation becomes more than a hint.

That kind of argument is unworthy - we are not choosing among mutually exclusive approaches to combating AIDS. You don't usually post like that.

It's not pathetic, it's bizarrely inflamed by overheated rhetoric. Removing arms and legs? Mastectomy and FGM? Please.

Or this:

Actually, if we are considering events that rare, all circumcisions are not "elective" in the sense of reasonably avoidable. There are some uncommon but more-common-than-that medical situations in which neo-natal circumcision is part of the indicated treatment of a birth defect or other serious medical problem. Failure to screen for that (fatal complications being much more likely in such situations) or consider the comparative longer term death and complication rates, along with the deceptive reference to car accidents within 28 days of birth as social concerns and some other hints in the abstract's rhetoric, lead me to question the clearly subtle and difficult statistical interpretations of the study authors.

But regardless, the circumstances of circumcision in a Western country - where we do have soap and clean water, the medical tech for safe adult circumcision, anesthesia, pediatric expertise for treatment of rare cancers or yeast and other infections in children, and other things that make the consequences of delaying such decisions less of a factor - mean that child circumcision should be a carefully made decision by informed and warned parents, and not be automatic or pressured.

Which would mean, in the US, not profitable for anyone, either way.

 

If you take your son out of teh country and have him snipped, could you still be arrested?

 

Depends how they wrote the laws, if it's like the FMG laws here then i belive yes, if you leave the country specifically to do it then you can be arested I belive.
(on a side note I wonder if they ever fixed those FMG laws which banned consenting adults from getting genital percings because the lib who wrote then apparently had never herd of adults doing that and belived it was wrong)

If you have already had it done when you move to the country though I doubt you could be charged

 

I don't know of any man that ever decided to be circumcised if there wasn't a doctor order standing behind it