Church will burn Quran

Discussion in 'World Events' started by baftan, Aug 1, 2010.

  1. Ja'far at-Tahir Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Registered Senior Member

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    612
    I know this which is why I used quotations, it's more or less I would say, in some instances.

    Whom? Wahhabis/Salafis? I know this, they say and accuse of us of many things. To put this into perspective, it's essentially the same as a Protestants accusing the Catholic/Orthodox Christians of the same. The term that Sunnis (not all mind you) often use to describe Shi'as is rafidah ("rejector"). I would like to point out that divide between Sunni and Shi'a has it's origins in the death of the Prophet (saw). However, this is accusation is not based in fact, it's clearly an extreme form of sectarian slander of which shouldn't exist in the ummah at all. I would also like to point out that Sunni-Shi'a conflicts in the region are not always the result of religious disputes but of political-power disputes and other such things as well. But again, there exist teachings in Islam, in general, that advocate tolerance and so forth. I have posted a verse from al-Qur'an which has specifically stated this exact thing. To resort to pardon, advocate tolerance and to disregard the ignorant.
     
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  3. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, this is true.

    We can see hundreds of thousands of WASP White Supremest members teach their children to respect the lesser races around them. Do not hurt them. Be kind to them. But, they are nevertheless inferior races.

    While it may be true that 99.99% of WASP racists are peaceful people who do indeed want to get on with their own life and devote themselves to bettering the White Race while letting the other races do the same (pretty much as your post indicated in regards to religion) - oddly enough, SOME of them go out and murder or intimidate or treat other non-Whites badly. In the same way that Ahmadiyya Muslims are treated in Pakistan and Indonesia.


    Why teach racial superiority?
    Why teach religious superiority?

    Why? I mean, I honestly don't see the point. They're both unnecessarily intolerances.


    If you were raised a Shinto, you'd probably be pretty much the same person you are now, only Shinto. Without any notion at all that Bibles are flawed or other Gods don't exist. Even the idea itself of a Heretic would have no meaning to you.


    I often wonder if people don't actually LIKE thinking their being White makes them better - even though they live in a trailer park on welfare. It feels GOOD thinking you "know the truth" and get to go to heaven - after you die. :shrug:
     
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  5. superstring01 Moderator

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    Totally serious.

    And you're using a typical apologist red herring. The sins of the USA do not excuse the sins committed in Islamic nations, nor do you see me making any excuses for what goes wrong in this country.

    We're talking about government sanctioned crimes committed in the name, and done hand in hand, with religious organizations. While you might have an argument for your claims about Bush, everything else you said after that has absolutely no bearing on the discussion or the points I was making.

    Moreover, I find it interesting that you didn't try to refute what I said, just tried to up the ante by throwing out side issues to distract away from the truth.

    Tisk tisk, Bells.

    Apparently more so than you.

    ~String
     
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  7. Ja'far at-Tahir Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Registered Senior Member

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    That isn't their beliefs at all, they have some weird theories about prophet Isa (as) and believe that after suffering on the cross that he eventually went to India. They also believe that Muhammad (saw) was the last and final prophet. They believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the Mujaddid, the Mahdi and the second coming of Jesus (as).

    It's probably a combination of multiple factors.
     
  8. superstring01 Moderator

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    12,110
    It's symptomatic of those who keep their eyes open to most bacwards religions, Islam being the biggest of them right now, but I'm no less forgiving of Coral Ridge Ministries, Wesboro Baptist Church and others like it. It's just, in most western nations, these organizations are fringe at best. In predominately Islamic nations, they are the norm.

    People think that by bringing up GWB, it's somehow a powerful argument against people in the USA making ethical judgments. As if, because I happen to be from a nation that elected him, I'm barred from ever judging the actions of another nation. But, LO and behold, how every other nation has the right to judge the actions of the USA (and pity the foo' who dares deny them that right!).

    And, as yet, we have no refuting of these facts, because once again, they are uncomfortable for people on the left to accept and admit. Not very PC (though, apparently it's totally PC to claim that everything the USA and the west does is totally evil). It's just much easier to say, "Well, you're mom's a big poo-poo head" instead of say, "Well, yeah, you might have a point."

    Just like Christian nations had to do a lot of soul searching (with much left to do), Islamic nations do as well. Fraggle happens to subscribe to the notion that they are ripe for a Reformation. I'm doubtful. But we'll see. Either way, every single thing I said was true, and stands. And, everything Bells said about the USA was true, but that truth doesn't distract from what I said nor does it deny me the right in pointing out backwards and despicable behavior where and when I see it.

    Would it be appropos for me to say, in turn, to Bells, "Well, your nation kidnapped an entire nation of Aboriginals so how dare you judge mine!" No. Because it really has no bearing on the fact that Islamic nations still treat women like dirt, still execute women for adultery, still behead men for witchcraft and still kills gays. Those are pretty horrific and immoral things, regardless of what the USA or any other nation does.

    ~String
     
  9. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    3,782
    Then in Spirit you are not a true follower of the quran.

    True Christians are called upon you use the Message of the Gospel to fight a war of thoughts, a war of the mind to destroy not the flesh and blood of another but to destroy the deceptions and evil doctrines that hold them in bondage.

    On the contrary a true muslim is called upon to use very different tactics, they are called upon to use terror and bloodshed to use fear to cause non-muslims to submit to islam until there is no other religion but islam in the world.

    Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

    Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”

    Qur’an 9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

    Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

    Qur’an 47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”

    Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’”

    Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

    Qur’an 4:95 “Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard, fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard, fighting Jihad with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Unto each has Allah promised good, but He prefers Jihadists who strive hard and fight above those who sit home. He has distinguished his fighters with a huge reward.”


    So the question to you Ja'far at-Tahir is what are you doing here in an internet forum when the quran clearly tells you that violence and terror is the tactic that you should be using to cause non-believers to submit to islam?

    Qur’an 9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”

    So what do you believe Ja'far at-Tahir? the quran or some halfed baked doctrine of a halfed baked compromising islamic theologians who where sick of jihad and wanted to just enjoy the fruits of the victories their forefathers won for them.

    Are you a muslim or what?


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  10. Ja'far at-Tahir Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Registered Senior Member

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    You're comparison is flawed and wrong. Humility is a core message in Islam and Christianity. Prophet Isa (as) in the gospel of Luke said it was the humble publican, the tax collector, whom said Allah (saw) take pity on me, a sinner, was the man whom was righteous, not the Pharisee. This message can be applied to the respect and tolerance of other religious folk as well. Also, is having differing opinions and believing that your opinion is correct, while also respecting the other party involved, inherently an assertion of superiority?
     
  11. Big Chiller Registered Senior Member

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    1,106
    Adstar,


    We don't go about trying to kill people like you.
     
  12. Adstar Valued Senior Member

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    3,782
    Of cource muslims go about killing people like me.

    How long would a true Christian survive preaching the Gospel message atop the Kaaba?? LOL A true Christian would be torn to pieces in minutes for declaring Jesus the Son of God and muhammed a deciever.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  13. Big Chiller Registered Senior Member

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    1,106
    We don't go about trying to kill people like you do.

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    Last edited: Aug 2, 2010
  14. Ja'far at-Tahir Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Registered Senior Member

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    This is response? Odd but really, I don't know why all of you think you can speak with any authority about Islam or have the balls to question my religious status, when you don't even understand the most elementary of things. Seriously, this is like shooting fish in a barrel.

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    Look, I'm sorry this blows your cookie-cutter image of what a Muslim is into dust. I really am, if you want, I can send you all a bunch of tissues for issues.

    Fuck off.

    Fitna means civil war, disagreement and so on, within Islam. Also, where the fuck are you getting these translations?

    "And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah . And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do."-Al-Anfal, 8:39, al-Qur'an, Sahih International.

    "The following was revealed regarding those who escaped capture on the day of Badr: And do not, O Muhammad (s), let those who disbelieve suppose that they have outstripped, God, that is, [that] they have eluded Him: indeed they cannot escape, they cannot elude Him (a variant reading has wa-lā yahsabanna, ‘and do not let them suppose’, so that the first direct object is omitted, actually being [an implied] anfusahum, ‘themselves’ [sc. ‘and do not let them suppose themselves to have outstripped’]; and according to another [variant reading] anna is read [instead of inna] with an implicit lām [sc. ‘because they cannot escape’])."-Tafsir al-Jalalayn.

    "The believers who sit at home, away from the struggle, other than those who have an injury, such as a chronic illness or blindness or the like (read in the nominative, ghayru ūlī l-darar, ‘other than those who have an injury’, as an adjectival clause; or in the accusative, ghayra ūlī l-darar, as an exceptive clause) are not the equals of those who struggle in the way of God with their possessions and their lives. God has preferred those who struggle with their possessions and their lives over the ones who sit at home, on account of some injury, by a degree, by [a degree of] merit, since both have the same intention, but the extra degree is given to those who have carried out the struggle; yet to each, of the two groups, God has promised the goodly reward, Paradise, and God has preferred those who struggle over the ones who sit at home, without any injury, with a great reward."-Tafsir al-Jalalayn.

    "When the Prophet (s) summoned men for the Tabūk campaign, and they thought it too burdensome, because of the hardship and the extreme heat from which they were suffering, the following was revealed: O you who believe, what is wrong with you that, when it is said to you, ‘Go forth in the way of God,’ you sink down heavily (iththāqaltum: the original tā’ [of tathāqaltum] has been assimilated with the thā’, and the conjunctive hamza has been supplied), in other words, you hesitate and are disinclined to [participate in] the struggle, to the ground, to stay sitting upon it? (the interrogative is meant as a rebuke). Are you so content with the life of this world, and its delights, rather than with the Hereafter?, that is, in place of its bliss? Yet the enjoyment of the life of this world is, in, comparison with the enjoyment of, the Hereafter but little, trivial."-Tafsir al-Jalalayn.

    You don't know jack shit about jihad, Islam or Muslims. Seriously, you didn't even know what the fuck the word 'fitnah' mean't. Also, if you had paid attention to any of my posts, I quote al-Qur'an, sahih hadiths and Islamic scholars frequently and do so to back up all of my assertions and arguments.

    I'm sorry what I am saying fucks with you're argument and view that all Muslims are bloodthirsty monsters. I know this highly inconvienant, don't worry, you can just write me off and say I'm lying, that's what we Ar...Muslims, do right? Wait, let me guess, jihad means "holy war," right? That's how you're defining jihad bil saif, correct? Moron.

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    You're also not taking into the context in which said verses are written nor are you taking into account other verses from al-Qur'an, sahih hadiths and works written by Islamic scholars. All of this is clear by you're clear misinterpretation of the true message of al-Qur'an.

    Are you an ignorant jackass or what?

    What about these:

    "O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted."-Al-Hujurat, 49:13, al-Qur'an.

    "The foundation is that the blood of Bani Aadam is sanctified and inviolable and no one is killed except with right. Killing due to kufr is not something which the legislations have agreed upon at any one time of the Shariah, such as killing the one who sits out of combat, for this is something that the legislations and intellect do not differ over. The blood of a disbeliever during the early history of Islaam was sanctified and inviolable just like the original sanctity of a person. Allaah prevented the Muslims from killing such a disbeliever."-Ibn Taymiyah, "As Saarim Al Maslool 'Alaa Shaatim ir Rasool", Page 104.

    "If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."-Al-Anfal, 8:61, al-Qur'an.

    "You shall resort to pardon, advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant."-Al-A'raf, 7:199, al-Qur'an.

    "GOD advocates justice, charity, and regarding the relatives. And He forbids evil, vice, and transgression. He enlightens you, that you may take heed."-An-Nahl,16:90, al-Qur'an.

    "Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors."-Al-Baqarah, 2:190, al-Qur'an.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2010
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Why do you think they being persecuted - some are even murdered? Many a legally persecuted. Why?

    OK, like what? Why are Indonesian Muslims persecuting the Indonesian Ahmadiyya Muslim Community?
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2010
  16. Bells Staff Member

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    22,983
    No it does not. But the US or its citizens are hardly in a position to be calling any other country backwards because of its religious ideals because of those that exist within its shores..

    But why not? Your religious leaders in the US and in Australia, for that matter, are not that far behind. We invaded other countries under a banner of 'God told me to do it'.. I say we because John Howard was enough of a retard to follow.. Are we any less backwards? I don't think so. We are just good at the hypocrisy and blaming others.

    You mean issues that have nothing to do with this discussion but that you and some others felt had to be mentioned in it? Did you even look at Jones' take on homosexuals and homosexuality? You had a Vice President, whose own daughter is a homosexual and he never once supported any laws that would give her equal rights or freedoms.. I don't need to distract it String. It's there. Australia is just as bad. Therefore I'm not in a position to be telling Muslims, in a thread about some religious twats in Florida burning Qurans, that their religion is backwards... Do you not see the irony of all this?


    *Blink*

    *Shakes String*

    What has happened to you?

    :bawl:

    Do you not see how backwards Jones is being? His views are virtually identical to what you are accusing Muslims of being - or Islam as a whole.

    I have to admit, I am surprised. I mean, I'd expect this kind of thing from Buffalo, Sandy or Geoff.. but you? No.


    Don't you "tisk" me!

    I'll whoop your arse to Sunday and back young man!

    I blame the wine. What's your excuse?
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2010
  17. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Humility? OK, then.

    I humbly concede the point to you: You may be correct Ja'far. There may be a God. That God may be Allah. Mohammad may have been a Prophet. The Qur'an may be the infallible words of God. This is true. I logically know that it is possible I may be wrong. I'm not so arrogant as to preclude logic. I just don't believe such is the case. As a matter of fact, I have no control over that aspect of myself. I am no more able to believe in Allah than you are to be able to believe in Xenu the intergalactic Alien at the center of the Religion Scientology. It's just not possible to make yourself believe. ALL of that said, again, I may be wrong and you may be right. So, do you also concede that I may be correct? That there may NOT be a God. Mohammad may not have existed. The Qur'an is just a continuation of Biblical narrative written by men and men alone.

    Do we agreed? Or are you going to redefine what being humble means?
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2010
  18. Bert Registered Member

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    I think the mumbai attacks in the 1990s perhaps? where hindus went around killing muslims in nearby neighbourhoods or something?
    all religions have a dark side.
     
  19. Bert Registered Member

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    umm idiot...

    you wouldn't even be allowed to enter makkah if you're not a muslim-so...???

    but in truth, it'll be a reaction very similar if a muslim went to the highest point of a cathedral and started preaching that christianity is all a deception and a load of shit.

    ...

    of course, im not implying it is btw...

    ...


    :scratchin:
     
  20. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Say the Devil's name and he will appear. We've been over your accusations of my accusations of stereotyping. If you're still confused, refer to our last big throw-down.

    I note you toss in the "Muslims of being" before qualifying with "Islam as a whole". Nice. Neither of which String is actually saying, IMO.
     
  21. superstring01 Moderator

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    12,110
    Wrong. We are all in a positing to judge every other nation on earth. I don't run the US government. I do, however, have the ability to judge the actions of another nation.

    Would you be reprimanding me if I were criticizing the British actions in India? South Africa's treatment of blacks? China's imprisonment of political protesters? Frances banning of the veil? Russia's assasination of its citizens? Israels treatment of Palestine?

    No.

    But because I'm criticizing Islam--which is now a protected class for the left--I'm doing something wrong.

    Why is that?

    Keep in mind, I don't hold Christianity in much higher regard, and I get no protests when I point out that I dance with JOY at the fact that in most Christian nations, this faith is very quickly dying and as well it should. It's responsible for a lot of horrors throughout the past two millennia.

    But for saying that, I will get almost no negative response (except from the very right). But when I equally criticize Islam and it's insane backward nature, the intellectual left on this board get a case of the vapors and act like I said something horrible.

    Truth, often times, hurts. I know that pointing out the truth is only allowed against the west, but every now and then it would be nice to see Islam and Muslims own up to their sins and crazy standards.

    Funny thing, if we were talking about the oppression of one race, I'd be applauded, but because I'm disgusted about the oppression of women that is sanctioned by an entire faith, I'm criticized. For some reason, we find racism more revolting than sexism, which I find a bit ridiculous. Islam is equally homophobic. Besides SAM, identify a SINGLE Muslim on this website--or in the real world--that will stand up and defend gay people's rights to get married. At least in Christian nations, I can find a sizeable plurality--if not a majority--that will do so. Show me a single Christian nation--besides an African backwater--that executes gays, witches, apostates and adulterers.

    Woops. there I go again, pointing out pesky facts.

    Yes we are. Behind is behind. Whether it's ten years or ten centuries. There is no rule that says we need to be a millennium beyond our past to look back and say, "What a horrible thing." Germany, for example, has every right to denounce genocide, despite it's past that happened a scant 70-ish years ago. Chile and South Korea has every right to demand that other nations treat their citizens with respect, despite the fact that they were oppressive dictatorships just a few decades ago.

    Besides, you don't see me defending the USA. If it makes you feel better, I fully admit that my nation has royally fucked up in the past--oh--fifty years. I would be satisfied at this point with closing up shop in every nation that there's a base--including Afghanistan--and coming home. Al Qaeda is pretty much gone and the only way to get rid of the Taliban would be total extermination of the population--a prospect not really desirable or feesable--but again, we aren't talking about the USA. I don't lose my right to debate, discuss or judge any matter on this forum or in real life just because I live in a terribly run nation.

    Do you? Does SAM? Are the you stating--for the record--that you will never again criticize anything, any people, any religion (including Zionists, fringe ideologues and their like) because you live in a nation that has a black mark on it? No. You won't. And you shouldn't, because we all--every single fucking one of us--runs around on the bones of the conquered. Your ancestors and mine all killed to get us where we are. People were raped, pillaged, robbed, expelled, slaughtered and exterminated long before written history--and well into it--to bring us to the point where we are today. Each and every nation is built on the dead corpse of something before it.

    None of us comes from innocent stock. We all, therefore, have the right to judge anything by the reality we live in. Oppression of any people, gay, female, different religions, is sick and despicable and you see this happen to the greatest degree in Islamic nations. Is it missing in the west? Nope, and I won't ever pull a punch when judging my own nation, but I don't feel morally obligated to do so when we're discussing others.

    Who's blaming others?

    No. I don't care for the caliber of discussion on homosexuality here. The only one I frequent is Tiassa's "The Gay Fray. . . " and that's only on occasion.

    Actually, he did. Behind the scenes. Which is about as good as it gets from Cheney. I don't know if you know this, but he was sorta' the worst VP since. . . since. . . um. . . help me out here.

    There is no irony, except in your selectivity.

    It's okay to criticize, say, Israel for it's oppression or China for its. . . but not Islam. Now, that's IRONY. . . well, maybe not irony, but something irony-ish.

    I've never been a big fan of any of the Abrahamic faiths. Islam is the worst offenders of the three right now. Christianity is fading in most of its territories, so I worry about it less. In the places its expanding, it seems to have a mild effect on the culture.

    Jones. . . the guy talking about gays? No. I never read his rant. I don't really care to.

    Wait. . . you're surprised to read facts.

    Tell me, for the record, which one is incorrect.

    This is a sad statement for your camp if you can't even point out how they were wrong.

    ~String
     
  22. PsychoTropicPuppy Bittersweet life? Valued Senior Member

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    Childish tantrum. Though, as far as I'm informed burning the Bible and other religious scriptures is for some Muslims almost a daily must. So, I guess there isn't much respect coming from either side. No mutual respect present. I guess the consequences are to be expected.
     
  23. Bells Staff Member

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    You aren't getting what I am saying. Why bring that up in this particular thread?

    I have absolutely no issues in pointing out the issues in any religion - be it their teachings, ideology or their retarded members - But why bring up this particular one in this thread? That is what I am not quite getting here. Why not start another thread?

    We are discussing a supposedly "Christian" religion who are demonising Islam and Muslims for being Muslims and for belong to the Islamic faith. Is it really necessary to then condemn this Christian group and then effectively say 'well Islam's record on this or that isn't that good'? In other words, who are you preaching to here? Do you think none of us know that homosexuals have no rights in some Islamic communities and are condemned to death for being homosexual, for example? Do you assume that we don't get that women in some Islamic communities have less rights than a friggin' goat? Do you think that by merely condemning Jones and his mouth breathing followers, that we somehow condone or apologise for the problems that exist in Islam, for example? Or does it have to be said, just as a reminder?

    But most importantly, why in this thread?

    It is as if there are some in this thread who are attempting to apologise or defend this group's freedom of speech by further demonising the group they are attacking, while saying 'well they're stupid and it's deplorable, blah blah blah'..

    Yes, we get that the Bill of Rights and the US Constitution protects Jones and his cronies from doing this. Just as the same protection is given to those who are building the Mosque a few blocks from Ground Zero. But really, are the two even connected or similar? I guess if you find Islam as being an insult to humanity, then the protest against the religion might be a tad similar. But that is really another topic for another thread.

    As Tiassa pointed out, it was only a matter of time before someone said it and it was you.. granted, Geoff and Will brought it up first. But there is an inherent need to almost apologise for calling groups, who do this kind of thing, stupid. I wonder, if it was an Islamic group who was doing it to Christians, whether the condemnation would be so, well, lacklustre?

    Do you get that I have pretty much stopped addressing you? I was using you as an example, which was blatantly obvious. I understand you have this need to be the victim and have me address you, but really, that stops now.

    Okay? Good.. Buh bye now..
     

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