Chromosome challenge from Creationuts

Creationuts are often heard squeaking that 'macroevolution + common descent have not been observed', hence 'there is no evidence for it', and that it is 'not real science'. Therefore evolution and Creationism are on equal footing.

When presented with such evidence which demonstrates evolution, and smashes Creationism (until Creationuts pull a dozen ad hocs out of their ass), Creationuts flee like rats from a sinking ship. The next day, they pop up on another 'ship' (aka. thread) and squeak the same old song. "No evidence, not observed, all based on blind faith, blah blah blah."

I wish to demonstrate the Creationut's method of operation here in this thread, by posing Creationuts with the Chromosome challenge. I've adapted it from Scigirl's great post here: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=116447

which is merely drawing on this source:
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/hum_ape_chrom.html

and added a highly relevant picture from another source: http://webpages.charter.net/rufusatticus/YunisFig2.GIF

Now, without further ado... the Chromosome Challenge!!! *drumroll*
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The Chromosome Challenge

In the lab, scientists have determined that chimpanzees have 24 chromosomes in their sperms and eggs, whereas humans only have 23.

Therefore, these 'evolutionists' theorized that two of our chromosomes might have fused together sometime in the recent past (aka million years ago.)

Their theory made 3 predictions:

1) One of our chromosomes would look like two of the chimp chromosomes stuck together.

2) This same chromosome would have an extra sequence in it that looked like a centromere. Centromeres are the things in the middle that microtubules grab onto to divide a pair of chromosomes during mitosis.

3) It would also have telomeres (ends) but in the middle - and they would be in reverse order. Sort of like this:

ENDchromosomestuffDNEENDchromosomestuffDNE

See the "DNEEND" in the middle? That's what two telomeres would look like if two chromosomes were stuck together.

The 'evolutionists' decided to test these predictions (so much for the Creationut claim that evolution theory doesn't make useful predictions!)

To test prediction 1, know that chromosomes all have a unique banding pattern. A "fingerprint." To test 2 and 3, you need sequence data. Telomeres and centromeres have characteristic DNA sequences.

What did those scientists find:

H=human, C=chimp, G=Gorilla, O=orangutan.

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and

Also note that the similarities do not stop at the 2nd chromosome, they can be found throughout the karyotype.

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Now the ball is in your court, Creationuts. Here is very powerful evidence that human and chimps share a recent common ancestor, but also a very well supported explaination of how humans and chimps branched out from that common ancestor. Our 'human ancestor' had his two chromosomes fused, which altered gene expression in ways to change body plans, whereas our 'chimp' cousin did not have his two chromosomes fused.

Clear the water, audience! I have a nasty feeling that the rats are about to jump ship! But not before they hurl out ad hominems, non-sequitors, smokescreens, strawmen and red herrings!

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That's pretty childish don't you think?

 

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CA:

Boo hoo hoo. Don't try to derail this thread where idiots try bitch about my bluntness. Because only someone who is nutty could somehow reject a fact like evolution.

The whole point of this thread is to:

1. Pose the Chromosome challenge, which is powerful evidence for common descent.

and,

2. Demonstrate the typical method of operation of Creationuts.


Now, can you answer the chromosome challenge?

 

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I think what will happen is just as you predicted. Creationists will simply ignore it. It's way too complicated for most so it will be very easy to shrug off. Throwing telemeres and centromeres at normal folk is something they can't relate to or even try.

I'm no geneticist, I looked at what you said more than once and I'll look at it again later. I know you know what you're talking about, I understand your frustration, you are not alone. I think what your doing is great.

Its no secret, advancements in science have been slowed by religion. Great minds that could be chasing down the secrets of life are being totally wasted in a search for something that isn't there. Too bad someone can't find the religion gene and do away with it.

 

I've heard Creationists say that this "common ancestry" is just demonstrating that God was economical with his designs - i.e. why use brand new models for humans when he can use most of what is included in other species such as chimps.

What is deemed evidence of "Common Ancestry" to evolutionists is merely evidence of "Common design" to Creationists.
It is just different interpretations of the same facts - that we share much of the same biology with chimps.

 

I am not trying to derail the thread, nor am I insulted by bluntness. I simply feel that your childishness does a disservice to your arguments.

 

The Chromosome Challenge

Mountainhare,

Am I correct in thinking that the first Chimp arose about the same time as us(according to this challenge)?

If not, how long have they been on the planet(according to the latest scientific data)?

 

I'm a Creationist, and this looks all right and good. Thank you for the interesting information. I wonder how exactly it altered the body plan. Would be an interesting study to find out.

 

The first problem with your evidence, is the confusion about what the standard phylogenetic tree says, and what you are trying to suggest.

If the phylogenetic tree is accurate, then chimps and gorillas are not ancestors of man, but some other species is a common ancestor of all modern primates.

But your 'evidence' suggests, or at least your presentation of it suggests, that *oopsy* two chromosomes got fused in some gorillas or proto-gorillas, and voila! Man.

You have a long way to go yet to sort out exactly what you are claiming, and what the evidence actually supports, as well as alternate theories and phylogenetic paths that might either explain your evidence, or re-interpret it more in conformity with Evolutionist dogma.

Either you are defending/supporting standard Evolution models, or you are proposing a novelty. But you can't have both.

Furthermore, a person can be skeptical, or even 'agnostic' concerning Evolution as currently offered, and/or treat it separately from philosophical/theological issues, without being a 'CreationNut'.

Or if you prefer, we could just call Evolutionists Evolutionarses,
Agnostics Acrostics, Atheists Anusists, and Satanists Satyrists.

 

Whoa there, that's alot of words and diagrams and stuff, are you trying to confuse us?

 

Eistuck, I believe he said that we (humans and chimps) share a common ancestor, not that chimps were our ancestors. Basically, what's being said is that this common ancestor had these same chromosomes, and a major difference between humans and chimps is that two of those chromosomes from the common ancestor fused in humans, while in chimps it did not. This in now way means that chimps are human ancestors.

 

The point is, it would have to be shown that this fusion contributed in some way to species differentiation. That this 'lucky' screwup either made homo sapiens what he is today, or else some other catastrophe occurred that altered both this chromosome pair, and several others, (perhaps in stages etc.) so that homo sapiens appeared, and other branches with or without this fused pair of chromosomes died off.

What if for instance, the same pair of fused chromosomes also appears in a whale, or a bacterium? So much for phylogenetic reasoning. At most, the evidence above presented offers a tiny, tiny ("single-bit") piece to a long and difficult genetic puzzle involving alleged epochs of evolutionary process.

There is no evidence here for 'evolution', any more than two correctly colored pixels from my screen is evidence of a windows desktop.

 

You have totally missed the point: either through ignorance (which is correctable through a good education) or intellectual dishonesty (which is correctable with a shotgun).
Evolutionists predicted that if their theory of a common ancestor of chimpanzees and man was correct that the chromosomes would reveal certain patterns. They did. That's the point. A scientific theory is strengthened each time a prediction is made and proves correct. This is one examples of thousands that relate to evolution.

 

No. That's what they SAID they did. There was no independant investigative body policing them, and there still isn't. They could just have easily have searched the evidence for patterns, then invented the theory to explain them, then pretend to 'discover' the patterns.

99% of genetic research is now conducted behind the closed doors of international drug companies and corporations with a vested interest in the 'management' of illness, disease, and reproduction (along ethnic lines...), and military applications.

The only "intellectual dishonesty" going on here, has been the hysterical attack against Christianity over the last hundred years in the name of 'science'.

A scientific theory *would* be strengthened if this was how scientific 'advancement' was actually accomplished in the real world. However it is now obvious that scientists are as corrupt a bunch of liars as politicians and every other 'professional' body of criminals.

Science actually 'progresses' along a far different and more sinister model: there are paradigm shifts that occur somewhat like the 'fight or flight' instabilities in lower animals. In between such paradigm shifts, which can only be adequately modelled by Catastrophe Theory, scientists act like religious bigots, persecuting and excommunicating all who refuse to worship the status quo: satan.

 

Attacks on religion in the name of science are irrelevant and inexcusable. I do not condone them.
Attacks on the conclusions of religion in relation to well documented science are not only permissible, but obligatory.

It is apparent from the tenor of your post that you are almost as contemptuous of science as I am of you and your delusional world view. Since this is the religion section of this forum I shall end my discussion here with you with this remark.
Your attitude is an offence to any thoughtful religious person and affront to the use of any vestigial intelligence you may have. Good day to you sir.

Edit: May I suggest that if you, or any member of your family, paid money for your education that you demand a full refund. I shall be happy to speak on your behalf in this matter.

 

Einstuck:

That's exactly the point I was making. The fact that you couldn't comprehend this is baffling. Perhaps you need to understand the point your opponent is making before you rush to hit the 'reply' button.

Now, are you going to rebut the actual ARGUMENT, instead of your fabricated strawman?

Ahhh, so the scientific articles written by the scientists are... lies? They lied about the structure of the chimp and human genone, which can be viewed by anyone with the right equipment? I'm sure that you can actually provide evidence to support your conjecture, instead of just baseless assertions? Do you have any scientific articles which demonstrate that the structure of the chimp and human chromosomes are not as these scientists say they are?

You entire rebuttal summarized = 'IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY AGAINST CREATIONISTS!111ONEONE".

Ladies and gentlemen, you have just seen a Creationut in action. When presented with damning evidence that humans and chimps share a common ancestor, the Creationists proceeds to...

1. Create strawmen arguments (OMG, YOU ARE SAYING THAT HUMANS CAME FROM CHIMPS, LOL111!!)

2. Poison the well by claiming that all scientists who accept evolution are 'liars' and 'dishonest', without supporting this defamation.

3. Squeak that there is a 'conspiracy' against Creationuts.

4. Claim that anyone who disagrees with Creationuts are worshipping Satan.

No refutation. No alternative explaination as to why we found the following, which evolution theory specifically predicts:

My bet is that like a rat fleeing from a sinking ship Einstuck will pop up in another thread about evolution squealing "No evidence for evolution!"

 

*************
M*W: As we say in Texas, "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit." Amen

 

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M*W: You know, whenever I see a picture of a baby chimp or baby Orangutan, I sense a motherly nurturing feeling and my breasts get plump and tingly. I want to hold the little darling and let him suckle at my breasts... and diaper him... and rock him... and show him proudly to my friends. He is mine. All mine.

 

MW:

I admit that the article is more technical than I would like it to be, but it is important that I included the detail so that the people who have an idea about genetics and chromosomes know that I am not talking shit.

To summarize, chimps have 24 chromosomes in sperm/eggs, while humans have only 23 chromsomes in sperm/eggs.

If chimps and humans share a common ancestor, you would expect that one of the human chromosomes would have the properties and sequencing of two of the chimp chromosomes which 'fused' together. Basically, all the technical jargon in the article explains what these properties are (existence of telomeres, order of genetic sequence, etc). When scientists compared the chimp and human chromosomes, one of the human chromosomes DOES INDEED have the sequence, and properties, of what we would expect two particular chimp chromosomes (2p and 2q) to have if they fused together.

 

davewhite:

Why is that relevant?