Christians Complain About Christmas

Listening to local public radio this morning, I heard a number of Christian callers complaining that Christmas is being co-opted into a secular holiday. Sounds a bit whining to me as I don't recall anything in the scriptures about Santa Claus, eggnog and trees. These complainers might do well to remember that there are really two Christmases: the religious observance that happens in Churches and homes, and the secular festival that starts immediately after Halloween.

And by the way, didn't Christians co-opt a pagan holiday to create Christmas?

:m: Peace.

 

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*And by the way, didn't Christians co-opt a pagan holiday to create Christmas?

Ah! yea;

http://www.witchvox.com/holidays/xyule.html

Godless.

 

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You know what's really funny and Ironic? The whole celebration of Christmas is desribed in detail in the Christian bible as a festival of a "pagen god" and Yehweh tells his people not to celebrate it but look at them they all do they just throw this new name and reason on dress it up as a christian holiday(holy day) and everythings all fine an dandy. As for the roots of the celebration and the praticing of it for some of these christians that believe the bible it the word of God...I don't know why the celebrate christmas boy they are gonna be some kinda pissed when they are in hell now aren't they LOL!!!

 

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podave,
Can you please supply Book, Chapter and Verse?
I would very much like to read this.

Thanks

 

I'm such a bad christian lol I don't know where it's at but i do know it's in there I'll search for it or ask one of my bible thumping friends who can give it to me off the top of their heads. that's how i am with the bible i don't know much of it but what i do know of it I know so i know it's in there just a matter of where. It's in the Old Testiment i know that much cause it was like a canninite festival for the God Baal. Which is another biblical oddity more than One God. And that the jeudo-christian one is jelous...of who/what if youre the only one who do you envy? yourself?

 

podave: I'm such a bad christian lol I don't know where it's at but i do know it's in there I'll search for it or ask one of my bible thumping friends who can give it to me off the top of their heads. that's how i am with the bible i don't know much of it but what i do know of it I know so i know it's in there just a matter of where. It's in the Old Testiment i know that much cause it was like a canninite festival for the God Baal. Which is another biblical oddity more than One God. And that the jeudo-christian one is jelous...of who/what if youre the only one who do you envy? yourself?
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M*W: podave, tell us a little about yourself. Are you still in school? Are you from some country other than the USA? Are you just not familiar with English? I'm having a hard time reading your posts. Are spelling and punctuation difficult for you or is it that you don't know how to type?

 

I am seeing this year a significant move to change references from Christmas to Holidays. A good move to get the Christian aberration out of this time of year.

Originally the Dec 25 date was thought to be the solstice and worthy of a celebration to mark this cosmological event. Shame they got the date wrong since it is Dec 21 but what the heck, what's a few days between friends.

Christians hi-jacked the date to celebrate their mythical deity and since something that never existed can't have an actual birthday any date would be fine. Of course very few people who celebrate Christmas actually know why they are doing it.

 

Correction the catholic church co-opted a pagan holiday to create christmas.

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All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

^^ oops goofyfish, you silly fish you.

Don't you know the Catholics are not the "TRUE" Christians .

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Then again Christmas was created/borrowed by the very early Christians. So if they werent true Christians then I wonder who is..

 

Or is it that of all the problems in the world the most important one to you is my typeing style. Jesus H. Christ! You're worse than a grade school teacher. Don't you have some babies to deliver or something Christ find something else to obsess about grammer nazi!

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first lesson for you southstar.

Christians do not mix the Light of the Word with the darkness of pagan ritual or celebrations

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All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

Ah! a little history lesson is in order here:

To begin, let us look at the actual reason this holiday exists: for Yule and Christmas are not so very different, underneath it all; both celebrate the arrival of the sun/son; or, if you like, the light of the world...

Ronald Hutton, in his excellent book The Stations of the Sun, has this to say about the story of the Nativity: It "makes sense on a mythological level--an archetypal representation of the birth of a hero at the junction of many worlds, (who is) engendered partly of humans and partly of the divine, born in a location that is neither indoors nor in the open air, belonging partly to humans and partly to animals, and adored by those on the margins of society."

Most modern pagans acknowledge Yule as the rebirth of the light half of the year; some traditions perform the play of the Oak King and the Holly King, just as it is done at Midsummer, to mark the change of the seasons as one of them reigns over the other. It is also generally accepted that the date of Christmas is an arbitrary one; that it was chosen to coincide with the pagan solstice celebration, as a way of "converting" the "heathens" (or country folk, heath-dwellers) to the Christian way of life.
click here

Godless.

 

podave: Or is it that of all the problems in the world the most important one to you is my typeing style. Jesus H. Christ! You're worse than a grade school teacher. Don't you have some babies to deliver or something Christ find something else to obsess about grammer nazi!

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M*W: It's not your awful spelling. It's not your pathetic grammar. It's not even your lack of proper punctuation nor is it your lousy typing. It's your inability to get your point across fluently. Your writing style has you running sentences together wtihout periods or capitlizations, so your thoughts run together and make no sense. If your point is valid, or even if it isn't, you should always validate your post so it can be read and understood without flaw.

~ The Grammar Nazi

 

Are you thus saying true Christians do not celebrate a 'pagan' Christmas?

I don't know if you are trying to be a hypocrite or just like to contradict the Bible but the edict is as plain as day.

 

YES THAT IS WHAT I AM SAYING.

Was he talking about christmas??? A day that at his time was not even recognized by the faithful???

He was talking about the holy days, the jewish Sabbaths Not easter or christmas both pagan days. The filthy catholic harlot got into bed with the roman empire both politically and spiritually. They are the ones who have destroyed millions by their tactic of balaam. her and her daughters will face wrath first from the beast that supports them and then from the Lord Himself.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

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This is all I will ask you ok:

Show me any contextual evidence that Paul here meant to limit "day" to your so-called "holy days", especially with regards to his statement "For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone." which implies a broader meaning (take a look at the preposition for).

In fact, why don't you actually just read the whole chapter and respect thematic verses like:

10But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

15Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.

22Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

As you can OBVIOUSLY see, Paul is not just talking about your so-called "holy days". He is making a broad reference to the hypocrites who "show contempt" for their brothers and "condemn" them, haughtily exalting their faith over others. "Have it to yourself before God", Paul counsels. He does not say "Take my words out of context".

Although I have refuted your argument, I would still very much like to see where you recieved your contextual evidence from if you please.

 

No one considers the Christmas day more sacred than any other day. But honoring God, remembering what God has done, is completely different from considering one day more sacred than another. For that matter, Christians celebrate Christ on Sunday. They don't consider Sunday to be more sacred than Monday.

 

It's rather unlikely. After all, with the really early Christians was Mary and I'd think Mary remembered the day she gave birth. I'm sure they celebrated the day.

The tradition of easter and Christmas dates back before Constantine. Easter celebration was only set on Easter day to avoid the dispute between Christians who celebrated Easter on a different day, and to celebrate on a different day than the Jews.

 

okinrus: After all, with the really early Christians was Mary and I'd think Mary remembered the day she gave birth. I'm sure they celebrated the day.
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M*W: Come on now, okinrus! December 25th is not the day Mary gave birth to Jesus nor is it written anywhere in christian literature or otherwise that Mary remembered this day to be the day she gave birth. This day was "assigned" because of the pagan ritual days associated with it. The actual day pagans celebrated was December 21st -- the shortest and darkest day of the year.

From the chapter Dynastic Wedlock in Bloodline of the Holy Grail, Laurence Gardner points out that:

"The [Essene] Community observed some highly regulated disciplines in the relation to dynastic betrothal and matrimony -- so we should refer to the question of Mary's said virginity to this very specific context."

"Both Matthew 1:18 and Luke 2:5 state that Mary was 'espoused' to Joseph, and she is thereafter referred to as his 'wife'. As determined in this regard, the word 'espoused' does not mean betrothed or engaged -- it refers to 'contractual wedlock'. But in what circumstance would a married woman also be 'virginal'? To answer this question we must refer to the original Hebrew word 'almah', the word that has generally, but incorrectly, been translated as 'virgin' (virgo), and incorrectly thought to mean ''virgo intacta.'"

"As we have seen, the real meaning of 'almah' was 'young woman' (and it had no sexual connotation). It was quite feasible, therefore, for Mary to be both an 'almah' and Joseph's wife. Let us look again at how Matthew describes what followed. When Joseph learned of Mary's pregnancy, he had to decide whether or not to hide her away. It is of course perfectly normal for a wife to become pregnant, but this was not the case for Mary."

"As the wife of a 'dynastic' husband, Mary would have been governed by the regulations applicable to Messianic (anointed) lines such as those of King David and Zadok the Priest. In fact, Mary was serving a statutory probationary period as a married woman of the dynastic hierarchy -- a period of espousal during which sexual relations were forbidden -- and Joseph would have had just cause for personal embarrassment when Mary was discovered to have coneived. The situation was resolved only when the high-ranking Abiathar priest (the designated Gabriel)(12) granted approval for the confinement."
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(12) See Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln, The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, Jonathan Cape, London, 1982, ch 12, p.285.
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"From the time of King David, the dynasty of Abiathar (2 Samuel 20:25) was established in the hierachy of senior priests. The line of Zadok was the primary priestly heritage, and the line of Abiathar was second in seniority. In addition to the traditional priestly styles, the Essenes also preserved the names of the Old Testament archangels within their governing structure.(13) Hence, the Zadok priest was also the archangel Michael, and the Abiathar priest (whatever his personal name) was also the angel Gabriel.(14) Being subordinate to the archangel Michael (the 'Lord -- like unto God'), the Abiathar/Gabriel was the designated 'Angel of the Lord' (the ambassador of the Michael-Zadok). This angelic system in the Book of 1 Enoch (4:9), and the 'War Scroll' (9:15-17) also indicates the angels' order of ranking during the Gospel era."
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(13) See Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln, The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception, ch 9, p.141.
(14) Twelve other works dating from and related to the last part of the Old Testament era constitute what is called the Apocrypha ('Hidden things'). Included in the Greek Septuagint, they were nonetheless not contained in the Hebrew canon. They originated in the Hellenist Judaism of Alexandria but are not accepted by orthodox Jews. The books are, however, included in St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate (c.AD385) as an extension to the Old Testament, and are recognized by the Roman Catholic Church, although they are omitted by almost all Protestant Bibles, having been sidelined by the prime reformer Martin Luther (1483-1546) and largely therefore ignored by translators. The twelve books are: Esdras, Tobit, Judith, the Rest of Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (of Jeremiah), Baruch with the Epistle of Jeremy, the Song fo the Three Holy Children, the History of Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, the Prayer of Manasses, and Maccabees.
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"In the Luke account, it was through the mediation of the angel Gabriel that Mary's pregnancy was granted approval, being of holy consequence. This is known as 'the Annunciation', but it was not so much of a matter of announcing, as one of sanctioning."

"Prior to Jesus's birth, the High Zadok (archangel Michael) was Zacharias.(15) His wife was Mary's cousin Elizabeth, (16) and his deputy, the Abiathar (angel Gabriel) was Simeon the Essene. (17) It was he who gave the formal consent for Mary's confinement, even though she and Joseph had disobeyed the rules of dynastic wedlock."
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(15) J.T. Milik, Ten Years of Discovery in the Wilderness of Judaea (translated by J. Strugnell), SCM Press, London, 1959, ch 1, pp. 11-19.
(16) In the New Testament, 2 Corinthians 4:3-7 similarly states: 'If your Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost . . . But we have this treasure in earthen vessels'.
(17) See James Robinson and the Coptic Gnostic Project, The Nag Hammadi Library, E.J. Brill, Leiden, Netherlands, 1977.
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"It is evident, then, that these dynastic rules were no ordinary matter, and were quite unlike the Jewish marital norm.(18) Parameters of operation were explicitly defined -- dictating a celibate lifestyle except for the procretion of children, and then only at set intervals. Three months after a betrothal ceremony, a 'First Marriage', with anointing, was formalized to begin the 'espousal' in the month of September. Physical relations were allowed after that, but only in the first half of December. This was to ensure that any resultant Messianic birth occurred in the 'Atonement' month of September. If the bride did not conceive, intimate relations were suspended until the next December, and so on. (19)"
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(18) 'Bedouin' is used in English as a singular adjective whereas it is technically a plural noun in Arabic: 'bedu' is 'desert' and the 'bedu'een' are the 'people of the desert'.
(19) Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews (translated by W. Whitson) Thomas Nelson, London, 1862, ch 5, p.2.
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"Once the probationary wife had conceived, a 'Second Marriage', with anointing, was performed to legalize the wedlock. However, the bride was still regarded as an 'almah' (young woman) until completion of the 'Second Marriage, which was never celebrated until she was three months pregnant.(20) The purpose of this delay was to allow for the possibility of a miscarriage. Second Marriages thus took place in the month of March. The reason that full wedlock was not achieved until pregnancy had been firmly established to accommodate the dynastic husband's legal change of wife if the first should prove barren."
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(20) J.T. Milik, Ten Years of Discovery in the Wilderness of Judaea, ch 3, pp.51-53.
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"In the case of Joseph and Mary, it was apparent that the rules of dynastic wedlock were infringed, since Mary gave birth to Jesus at the wrong time of year (Sunday, 1 March, 7 BC).(21) Sexual union must therefore have taken place six months before the designated December, in June 8 BC (22) -- at about the time of their initial betrothal -- some three months before their First Marriage in September. And so it was that 'Mary not only conceived as an almah, but also gave birth as an almah' before her Second Marriage."
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(21) John Allegro, The Dead Sea Scrolls, Penguin, Harmondsworth, 1964, ch 5, p.95.
(22) Ibid, ch 5, p. 93.
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"Once Mary's unauthorized pregnancy had been confirmed, Joseph would have been granted the choice of not going through with the Second Marriage ceremony. To save embarrassment he could have placed Mary in monastic custody ('put her away privily', as in Matthew 1:19), where the eventual child would be raised by the priests."

But if the child was a boy, he would be Josephs's 'firstborn' descendant in the Davidic succession. It would have made little sense to bring him up as an unidentified orphan, leaving a possible younger brother to become his substitute in the kingly line. Joseph and Mary's unborn child was plainly a significant prospect and demanded special treatment as an exception to the general rule. The angel Gabriel would therefore have advised that, since a sacred legacy was at stake, Joseph should go ahead with the Second Marriage ceremony . . . 'for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:20)."

 

I do not believe in all the teachings of this site below but their information on the origins of christmass i do agree with.

A good document on the origins of christmass

Let the Spirit convict

All Praise The Ancient Of Days