Choice is Irellivent

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Cybernetics, Sep 23, 2008.

  1. Cybernetics Registered Member

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    I propose choice is irellivent for 2 reasons

    1. given the example of 3 boxes with one containing the prise, the chance of getting the right one is always 1/3 however long you dither for.

    2. if all the particles are in the same place in the brain the same choice will always be made. thus efectivly you could press rewind and fastforward as many times as you like to the world and the sme ending would always come about.

    If you could work out the movement of all the particles int eh world you could prodict the future perfectly.
     
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  3. kenworth dude...**** it,lets go bowling Registered Senior Member

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    1.depends if the person who put the prize in the box is around at the time

    2.no
     
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  5. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    :runaway:

    :roflmao:

    :wallbang:
     
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  7. RJBeery Natural Philosopher Valued Senior Member

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    Cybernetics, although most would not, I actually agree with you that the world could be deterministic but that doesn't mean that choice is irrelevant. If you adopt the attitude that choice is irrelevant then you are actually influencing the choices that you would otherwise make.
     
  8. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    If the universe is wholly deterministic (which it isn't) then you HAVE no choices.
     
  9. RJBeery Natural Philosopher Valued Senior Member

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    one_raven, we're kind of opening a box of worms here, but I disagree. I think free will is experienced just like pain or sweet. It is a qualia whose definition IS the experience. By that definition, one may "experience" free will while still being "forced" into a decision.

    Ask yourself this question: are you able to make a decision that you did not choose? If not, then you were FORCED to make that decision!

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    You "choose" what you do based on your values, which is determined by your genetics, life experiences, personality, etc, which are all things out of your control...
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2008
  10. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    This one is a slippery slope; if I have to accept that this post I'm typing wasn't a free choice, but a compulsion, does it make any difference?
    Does it mean I can predict everything I'm going to do, even in principle? Why don't I 'know' that I'm being compelled to do everything I do, but instead have a sense of making a choice?
    Does it matter?
     
  11. RJBeery Natural Philosopher Valued Senior Member

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    I agree it is a slippery slope, but I believe that most people's objection to a deterministic world is that it makes them "feel yucky", like we're just trapped in a story whose future has already been written. To me, this reason is irrelevant, and I believe as the OP said that if we were able to be 'transported back in time' to make a decision under the same exact circumstances we we make the same choice every time. This seems obvious to me, and yet I don't believe that this excludes the experience of free will...
     
  12. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    It is not nearly as obvious to me.
    We have the higher faculties which allows us to act outside our nature and override our instincts.
    We have the ability to rationalize, justify and change rapidly for many different reasons - even for no reason.
    This is the core of free will.

    Regarless of which of us is correct, believeing you have free will is not the same as having free will.
    Choice, therefore woud be completely irrelevant if there was no free will.
    If you "decided" to sit under a tree and do absolutely nothing at all until you starved to death or if you "decided" to solve world hunger, that would simply mean that was what was determined for you and you made no choices at all.
    Your fate was determined Billion of years before the earth even existed.
    I think that's ridiculous nonsense, but there is no way to prove it either way - oh well.
    I say long live free will, Chaos Theory and karma.

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  13. CheskiChips Banned Banned

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    This thread belongs in philosophy
     
  14. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Definitely.
    I didn't even notice it is in Physics/Math.
     
  15. RJBeery Natural Philosopher Valued Senior Member

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    So the thought of no free will makes you "feel yucky", does it Raven?

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    If Free Will has a definition outside of what we attribute to it, then it exists by default. Otherwise, it means exactly what say it does. And my version of Free Will is experienced, and does not exist outside of this experience.

    Yes, this thread belongs in Philo. I knew where this was headed when I said "you're opening a box here..."
     
  16. CheskiChips Banned Banned

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    When you think life is pre-destined you've essentially taken away your own free will.
     
  17. Betrayer0fHope MY COHERENCE! IT'S GOING AWAYY Registered Senior Member

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    Go try and kill yourself, and try as hard as you can. Take comfort in knowing that, if you die, you had no part in it and if you live, you also had no choice in it. I have a feeling you won't attempt suicide, why's that? Because you already made up your mind? Or because you really don't wanna die, and you do have a choice. If you truly think we do not have a choice in life, do whatever the fuck you wish to, and know that there were no other choices available. I also present this challenge to all theists who currently believe in an all knowing God, go kill yourselves.
     
  18. Fathoms Banned Banned

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    well hokely dokely then...
     
  19. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    I like that post!
     
  20. chris4355 Registered Senior Member

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    I think maybe he means that if something knows EVERYTHING in the universe, from every atom, photon to even what each living thing likes and how it behaves.

    Maybe it can predict the actions of others and even on a bigger scale predict the future. Of course such a machine would be impossible to make, but if it was possible - it could then predict choices people will make BUT!! that still doesn't mean people do not individually make that choice when they go through the moment.
     
  21. Nin' Registered Member

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    I can't clearly express the utter stupidity portrayed here. Then again, your talent for butchering the English language does that for me.
     
  22. RJBeery Natural Philosopher Valued Senior Member

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    BetrayerOfHope the timbre of your post matches that of your handle. Are you a happy person?

    Chris4355 nailed it. Just because my ultimate choice is predictable doesn't mean I did not make it. BetrayerOfHope you give supporting evidence in your little rant - you believe that I won't kill myself; does that mean only if I DO kill myself did I make a free will decision? Of course not!
     
  23. chris4355 Registered Senior Member

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    not bad for your 8th post! your coming in this forum strong!

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