China's petaflop computer

Discussion in 'Computer Science & Culture' started by Billy T, Oct 29, 2009.

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  1. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Can anyone confirm following claim?

    "According to the latest list of the world's 500 fastest supercomputers released Nov. 18, 2009, the "Milky Way One" ranked fifth in the world and first in Asia. "Milky Way One" is China's first teraflop supercomputer cluster system, developed by the Computer Science Department of National Defense University. ...The International Top500 organization releases world's supercomputers list twice annually based on Linpack testing. This organization aims to promote exchange and cooperation in supercomputing fields and spread its application.

    "Milky Way One" is China's first petaflop (was erroneously "tera" in source - correction thanks to post 23) supercomputer system, with a peak speed of 1,206 trillion functions per second. Linpack testing reaches 563.1 trillion functions per second.

    Advanced supercomputing technology is a symbol of technological competitiveness especially in the information age. Among the top ten listed, there are 9 American produced supercomputers and the "Milky Way One".

    Experts believe that "Milky Way One" is a way of showing the uprising status of China's advanced computer technology and it will provide solutions for critical economic and technological issues. .."

    From: http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90881/6817000.html
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2009
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  3. wow only a teraflop. That's what one gpu card can do. Ah I see it's a bunch of servers. IBM made a 500GHZ chip take 2 or 3 of those, put them in a super cooled tri-mobo and u got over a TFLOP.
     
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  5. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    All seems accurate, except it should say "petaflop" and not "teraflop." Also the part about showing off "China's advanced computer technology" is misleading. This is China's in the sense that they paid for it, but none of the significant technology in the machine is Chinese, to my knowledge.
     
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  7. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Thank for correction. I have edit post (with note telling it was "tera" in source). Unfortunately I did not give link to first article sited in the OP, but recall they were going to move computer and rebuild it in a few months with Chinese CPUs. As I recall this rebuild would slightly increase its power.

    I am sure China is lagging US in many advanced technical areas. In fact part of their current economic arguements with the US is that they would like to import more high tech products from the US (Help trade balance) but the US will not sell to them.

    In a month or so, I expect the Yuan will be pegged to four: Dollar, Yen, Euro and S. Korean Won, (perhaps 25% each?) but China needs to delay as does not want appear to be a response to Obama's visit. They could make no immediate change from 6.83 Yuan to the dollar, but as the dollar slides wrt the three others, the Yuan can rise wrt it. As I have long predicted, China is trying to transition to a mainly domestic market economy, like Brazil has (only ~13% of GDP is exports and that percentage is still faling.) despite being: "... the world's leading exporter of iron ore, coffee, soy, orange juice, beef, chicken, sugar, and ethanol." See full quote and source at: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2417420&postcount=204
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2009
  8. John99 Banned Banned

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    omg, china is building a fucking computer. let us all cry....boo hoo hoo.
     
  9. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    I believe those were GPUs they were talking about, not CPUs. Regardless, China will be lucky to remain in the top 5 fastest computers by the time the next top500 list comes out.

    Nobody disputes that China would like to end up as a consumer economy and that the US would like to run a smaller trade deficit. The rub is that nobody seems to know how to get from here to there. China doesn't want to crash it's export base, and the US doesn't want to export sensitive high tech to China, etc. Every conceivable method of transitioning from the current arrangement to the one everyone seems to want is fraught with risks and costs, and nobody seems to be taking any serious initiative, lest they end up bearing the lion's share of the costs. And so we keep going on the same old road, with China's economy consisting of investment and export, and America's of consumption.

    Like anything, it's bound to break down eventually, one way or the other. But I don't see China making any bold, unilateral moves to force such a transition. It's not in their management style in the first place, and such a course would entail considerable risks to China (shut off the state-directed bank lending corruption machine, and all of the sudden the CCP's hold on power doesn't look so certain, for example).

    Instead, everyone seems to be hoping that the transition will occur on its own, gradually and organically, without any particular politician having to stick his neck out. And so the dance continues.
     
  10. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    You are probably correct, again. I don't even know what a GPU is so would have remembered it as CPU.

    As far as China switching to more domestic based economy it is, I be brief as off thread and don't remember exactly the numbers, but domestic consumption greww ~13% last month and exports fell (also double digits as I recall). US being less able to buy helped that and now for several months EU is buying more from China than the US is. We can discuss more in another thread of your choice. I try to look at all new activity in B&E forum every day.
     
  11. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Consumption is growing absolute terms, but still not as quickly as investment. As a result, consumption in China is continuing it's long-standing decline as a percentage of GDP. Chinese consumption reached an all-time low last year, and is still far below its level in the early 1990's as a percentage of GDP. Ending export reliance will not be sufficient to make China into a consumer economy: they also need to cut down on investment. However, investment has surged in recent years, due to stimulus funding and the incentives created by corruption in the banking sector.
     
  12. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Would that not depend on what the investment is building or buying? I.e. if mainly to make bicycles factories, movie houses and resturants etc. instead of factories making export goods, investment should aid conversion to a mainly domestic market GDP, I would think. I though most of the stimulus was building rail roads etc or helping build rural centers - not factories for export.

    To be slightly on thread, I think China now has more internet users than the US and certainly is making a lot of computers for the domestic market too. The variety of Cell phones sold in China is amazing. Some years ago, one for ladies was marketed with a refillable chamber for their perfume and has pump to spray it!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2009
  13. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    To a certain extent and in the long run, yes.

    A lot of what the investment is buying is political support. It's funnelled through state-controlled banks, and then loaned out on a preferential basis to "reliable" businesses at bargain rates, etc. All of which is rather inefficient, from an economic perspective, since it tends to get skimmed off and directed towards well-connected, entrenched businesses.

    More to the point, investment will necessarily be a major (if not the major) component of China's GDP until they transition from "developing" to "developed." The extent to which investment/export outweigh domestic consumption might as well be the definition of "developing economy."

    So when we say "China wants to become a consumption-led economy," all we're saying is "China would like to become a developed country." And that's true, but the only for them to get there is many, many more years of heavy levels of investment. They've still got hundreds of millions of people living in poverty, and so still require a huge amount of new infrastructure if they're going to count on the disposable income of the population to drive growth. There is no switch they can flip to make all those people rich, or to make the existing rich people less apt to save their income. That stuff requires long-term development, both of infrastructure and social safety nets, transparent banks, etc.

    Also, exports are going to play an outsized role in China's economy until they give up their policy of artifically depressing the yuan. But they don't seem to be in a rush to do that, either.
     
  14. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Suppose 100% is. That does not mean that as it "trickles down" 100% is directed towards export production. In fact I would tend to think more of the politicians and other leaders who are skimming off the top for personal gain would be buying fancy houses, big cars, etc. - I.e. adding to domestic demand more than export capacity. Is this not the way it would mainly be?

    Even if they use part of criminal gains to visit son in Chinatown USA, they are taking dollars out of the country (and probably importing french wine, etc. ) - I.e. helping bring the balance of payments surplus down.

    I remember reading a couple of years ago that the wine shop in Orely airport (Paris) sold, by special order, one bottle of Baron Rothechild wine for more than $100,000 dollars to a returning, but discretely un-named, Chinese traveler. I.e. corruption makes imports increase, not exports increase.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2009
  15. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    I didn't say it was. But neither is it necessarily expressed as consumption. Much of it is simply saved, and so ends up back in the banks, to be used for further state-directed investment. It's the reliance on exports and investment that marginalizes consumption as a component of Chinese GDP.

    Also, the state-directed, corrupt nature of the bank lending there ensures that a disproportionate level of the lending is given to entrenched players, most of whom are in export-oriented sectors.

    Moreover, skimming out investment and using it on consumption instead is a one-time thing which doesn't contribute substantially to sustained consumption next year. Particularly if it's spent on imports, as that fails to stimulate domestic production of consumer goods. Instead, it stimulates production of, in your example, French wine.

    The point is the same: if consumption is to drive the Chinese economy, that implies that investment will not. And that implies vastly reduced investment, and so much slower growth of per-capita income, and a weakened CCP corruption machine. Neither of those outcomes are going to be on the CCP's agenda any time in the near future, no matter how much they'd nominally prefer to preside over a consumer economy. At present, they don't even have any model of how to retain political control in a consumption-led economy, which is associated with a more diffuse economic power structure and empowered citizenry. You can't exercise political control of a consumption-led economy simply by directing the state banks to give preferential loans to your political allies. Nor can you prop up job growth by manipulating your currency and inviting foreigners to invest in factories.
     
  16. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    "Its Nebulae machine at the National Super Computer Center in Shenzhen, was ranked second on the biannual Top 500 supercomputer list. For the first time, a second Chinese supercomputer appears in the list of the top ten fastest machines...."

    From:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/10181725.stm

    Certainly that is one of two possibilities, but the other is greatly increased domestic economy. That does not seem far fetched to me given how lower typical consumption per person is now. (Not to mention 4 times larger population than the US.)

    Also it is official policy to make this happen (as well as simple good economics if your prior buyers in US and EU are contracting their purchases, saving more trying to "deleverage" - not go bankrupt, etc.) Giving farmers the right to lease their land to large efficient units is a big step towards greater rural income. With their rent many are moving to the 100 new 1 million population cities has in 5 year plans. - some like white horse village now essentially finished. that is a lot of growth in prevously primative areas - has problem too - the farmers still piss in the streets etc.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2010
  17. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    #1 = USA = The Jaguar = 1.75 petaflops.
    #2 = China = The Nebulae = 1.20 petaflops (theoretically can reach as high as 3.0 petaflops).

    The way I see it is the Chinese want it more. They're more hungry for top spot and I'm sure they're going to achieve it in all areas of life. Then become fat and lazy like Americans, English, Japanese etc...
     
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    It should be noted that "secret" super computers are not included on the list....
     
  19. Zakariya04 and it was Valued Senior Member

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    PETAFLOP

    man that is a bit of a lame term, HARDLY COOL LIKE A TERRABYTE OR MEGA HERTZ OR WHATEVER!
     
  20. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    What would be the point of keeping one secret? It can not do anything special - only the same thing a little fatster as I understand this.
    Why give up the pride of being No.1?

    Here is more details on China's machine:

    "The new supercomputer, which was made by Dawning and installed at China's National Supercomputing Center in Shenzhen, combines ... Nvidia's Tesla C2050 graphics processors with Intel's Xeon X5650 quad-core processor, which runs at 2.66GHz. Nebulae has a theoretical peak capability of almost 3 petaflops, which would be the highest ever for a supercomputer, according to Top500.org. That performance would beat Jaguar, which has a theoretical peak speed of 2.3 petaflops.

    The Jaguar is a Cray XT5-HE system and includes Advanced Micro Devices' six-core Opteron processors running at 2.6GHz. ...
    The list was published on Monday at the International Supercomputing Conference 2010 conference in Hamburg, Germany.
    The list is published twice a year by Top500.org. ..."

    From: http://www.computerworld.com/s/arti...rankings?source=CTWNLE_nlt_dailyam_2010-06-01

    Billy T asks, in ignorance: Where were the two named units of it designed and where were they built? If answer is "In USA" does this show anything more than China has a lot of money? I.e. is skill required to assemble US made parts into computer with potential greater than the US has?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2010
  21. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I agree. For decades, Brazil had the largest hydroelectic dam in the world (and still does by a few ways they can be compared). The Chinese I am sure designed the Three Gorges Dam to be just slightly larger by most measures. Brazil has just awarded less than a month ago right to group to build what will be No 3 largest dam and already gets 80% of its electricity from cheap, environmentally friendly hydro-power. Coal and oil make up only 10%, as I recall - I made recent post with exact numbers for all sources in the Brick News and comment thread, I think it was.
     
  22. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    To avoid divulging sensitive details about the capabilities of your defense and intelligence systems.

    Because you're more interested in the pride of being No. 1 in military and intelligence.

    Besides, topping the top500 list is transitory - within 5 years the current leaders will be forgotten.

    The NVidia and Intel components are certainly designed in the USA, and I'd wager the Intel parts are also manufactured here - not sure where NVidia sites their manufacturing, although I do know that they sometimes contract it out.

    I'm given to believe that at least some of the higher-level parts of the system were designed in China. A lot of supercomputer design these days uses off-the-shelf processors, and most of the original design is in figuring out an architecture for connecting them together. But there don't seem to be a lot of public details on this aspect of the system, so it's hard to say.

    And as far as having a lot of money to spend on computers, let's bear in mind that 280 of the systems on the top500 list are American.

    Some skill is required, yes. But it's not clear what, if anything, China did on that end here. US supercomputer companies have been working out (and patenting) such stuff for many years now, so for all we know this system uses non-Chinese technology for those portions of the system as well.
     
  23. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Can you give an hypothetical example, where computing something, which is very computationally complex, in an hour instead of 1.5 hours is critical etc.?

    I think these super fast computers are mainly used for complex theory, such a detailed modeling of a galaxy for 1000 years of evolution etc. I can not imagine any military application where saving half an hour in a hugely complex calculation would make any difference. I .e. where the secrete computer would be better than the garden variety 0.5 pentaflop computer.

    I note, before you suggest that weather prediction might be one, that lack of sensor fine-grid / detailed input data is what limits the modeling of weather. You can do almost as well as the computers by simply predicting tomorrow will be like today but you too need to know and adjust for moving weather fronts. I.e. more accurately stated: "Tomorrow will be like the weather moving our way is today."

    Perhaps you you have something else in mind requiring fast complex calculation for a military application? BTW I also think sorting thru Emails for "bomb" etc is input data rate limited, not computation rate limited.

    BTW last part of 33 has reply to your post - I had not seen your post replying to mine until I dug up this well buried thread to post the news about China's new computer.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2010
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