China & IMF's SDRs - before end of 2015?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Billy T, Nov 13, 2015.

  1. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    End of post 13 of the CHINA and everyone thread on 23 Aug 2015:
    Not everyone has their head in the sand, when it comes to China's great economic progress. A country with 4 times more people, that is growing 4 times faster than US, and is world's largest creditor nation and trader.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2015
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  3. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LOL...And not every one is an advocate for the People's Republic of China.

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    As previously stated many months ago, China has been lobbying long and hard to get its currency recognized as an SDR currency. Per the previously referrenced IMF paper, it would be a mistake to make the Chinese yuan an SDR currency.

    Weren't you telling me China's rival bank would obsolete the IMF and World Bank? If that is so, then why is China trying so hard to get SDR status?
     
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  5. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    True some even deny the great economic progress they have made and if it is reported in China Daily call it "Chineses propaganda" even when the China Daily is just plagarizing from western sources and reports.

    In the recent case when ChinaDaily listed 10 production areas where China was by far the world leader they were plagerizing from the report / study by Bank of America/ Merrill Lynch. Yet as usual you just, without any reason but your opinin, called it "Chinese Propaganda"
    China has made no secrete about wanting to be part of the base of the IMF's SDRs. They have accelerated many currency an fiscal policy changes to qualify - and the staff of the IMF now says they do. Considering that China is the world's largest trader and world's largest creditor, it is silly not for the yuan to be part of the SDR base.
    No. I tend to quote others and then you make up some words to stuff in my mouth. What I did do was reproduce 4 or 5 cartoons showing how unhappy "Uncle Sam" was that the rest of the world, led by England, was ignoring his request /suggestion that they NOT join the Chinese AIIB. It is not a direct competors to the IMF, which the US domintes as their charters are different. This global rush to join the AIIB is just one more sign that the US is losing influence around the world.

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    The real fear that US has is that China's economic growth (4 times faster than the US's) and population 4 times larger with real purchasing power growing by double digits annually will soon kill the petrodollar system, as this cartoon suggests:

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    China is by far the world's largest producer of gold, and never sells an ounce of it. Some years India is the largest and some years China is the largest importer of gold. China is reducing its holdings of US Treasury paper. Every year for more than a decade in relative terms (% of reserves) and most recent years in absolute terms also.

    China can destroy the US bond market when ever the CCP thinks that would be to China's long term economic advantage. Because of this, and other factors, the US will not stop the Chinese from building more air fields, etc. on expanded atoles in the S. China Sea. The Chinese do recognize that free passage thru the S. China Sea is an international right of all nations, but not within the 12 mile limit of islands that Chinese are living on.

    Here is that list of ten areas, from US bank report, Not so trivial Facts where China leads the world in production:

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    BTW I noticed an 11th area: China produces more than 90% of all the world's shipping continers.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2015
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  7. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Except no one is denying China's economic progress...oops. What is being debunked is your Chinese propaganda. There is a difference BillyT. Additionally, you have been repeatedly requested to back up your claims and you have repeatedly failed to do so. You have repeatedly failed to produce evidence of these "western sources" you claim exist. Unfortunately for you BillyT, facts do matter.

    You are spamming your previous posts which have been debunked as propaganda. As previously noted, there is no doubt China has been for a very long time now been campaigning and lobbying to receive special drawing rights privileges from the IMF. Whither and when it receives those rights remains to be seen. I concur with the IMF study released in August of this year which as you know says China should not receive special drawing rights privileges at the IMF.

    As demonstrated by its most recent economic meltdown, China has some big economic problems which it has yet to address and its currency remains far from a free floating currency, even after its recent "reforms". And as repeatedly put to you, if China's New Development Bank was going to put the IMF out of business or become a serious rival to the IMF as you asserted, then why does China desperately need or want IMF special drawing rights privileges?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2015
  8. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    You need to tell at least one example to which you refer. - Give quote of me saying something false in praise of China's economic progress. If it is fact, then it is not "propaganda" no mater how many times you give YOUR OPINION that it is.
    I have now at least four times told you the fact you can SEE in lower right of the long graphical insert that the original paper ChinaDaily plagarized from for the 10 greatest production areas was the report called "not so trivial facts" published by Bank of America Merrill Lynch. - Do I have a copy of that report? No. Google search has only turned up many others discussing it, not the report its self, but I'm not good at searching, as I have noted many times before. I'm not going to waste more effort look for a down loadable copy of the report. Even if I found that, it would not make any difference to you - your mind is closed and does not want to reognized the rapid economic progress China has made, and still is making.
    No. I reposted the long graphic so you and others could see it gives credit to Bank of America Merrill Lynch as the origin of the report "Not so trivial facts." How did you "debunk the report as propaganda" Your opinion does not do that. You need to refute with links at least some of the 10 facts.

    The best you have done to challenge the Chinese claim to produce 48.9% of the word's pork (back in 2011) is by noting that not all of their production is done in China. The Chinese pork production has greatly increased since 2011 as in May 2013 Virginia-based Smithfield Foods (SFD), the world's largest processor of pork, SFD was being bought by Chinese meat producer Shuanghui International for nearly $5 billion.

    Probably now China produces 75 % of the world's pork, but some of it outside of China's borders, where corn is cheaper. It is just good economic sense to ship the higher value per ton pork to China from where corn is cheap than to ship the much greater tonnage of corn required to feed pigs in China. China is raising the pigs and Chinese are eating the port and probably don't even know some of it was not raised in China.

    Why are you trying to make big deal of this simple smart economics?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2015
  9. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LOL...it's not like I haven't already given you many quotes. Below is a link to my post in which I did show how you misrepresented the very same material you first posted it the B&E sub-forum and now have re posted in the World Events sub forum. In addition to misrepresentation, that's spamming BillyT. You have posted the same material in different sub-forums.

    http://www.sciforums.com/threads/bric-news-comments.84022/page-47#post-3339849

    Well, what you have repeatedly done is attempt to evade. You cite a document you claimed was published by Bank of American Merrill Lynch but you have yet to produce that paper or provide any link to it. Just because people in the blogosphere reference it, it doesn't mean it exists. This may come as a surprise BillyT but not everything thing you read in blogs is true. Ultimately, the only entity which knows the true figures is the Chinese government, and also as has been repeatedly proven to you, the Chinese government is known to fudge its economic numbers in order to present China in the best possible light. That's that transparency "thingy" I keep mentioning.

    Additionally, as I have repeatedly pointed out to you, the main issue isn't what is reported. It's what isn't report. I suggest you go back and reread my previous posts including the link I referenced in this post.

    Actually, that isn't the best I can do. As I have repeatedly pointed out to you, the fact is that as much pork as China claims to produce, China's pork production isn't sufficient to satisfy China's demand/need for pork. That is why China imports the vast majority of world pork exports from places like Europe and, Canada and the US. China doesn't produce enough pork to meet its need for pork.

    Omission isn't intellectually honest. It's propaganda. Misrepresentation isn't intellectually honest. It's propaganda.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2015
  10. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    That link tells WHERE pork is produced, not by whom. In post 932 of the Bric news thread I said:
    " One thing that may help resolve the conflict between this US data { from Bank of America MerrillLynch that China Daily plagarized} and the US sources you quoted {your link above}, is different meanings for "Chinese produced." China produces a lot of pork in the US where corn is much cheaper and ships good part of it to China. "

    Just because Aluminum Corp of America, produces aluminum in Norway and Brazil where electric power is cheap does not mean Norwegian and Brazilians are producing and using most of that aluminum. - It is a very gobalized world now - Companies produce items where production costs are least, not only in their own country. Many "American cars" are made in Mexico, probbly 100% of then have parts in them made outside of the US, etc. I may be wrong, but think no tires are made in the US."
    The following are not "bloggers"
    http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-stats-versus-rest-of-the-world-2013-2
    http://business.financialpost.com/b...cts-about-chinas-massive-manufacturing-sector
    https://books.google.com.br/books?id=LqxNAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA46&lpg=PA46&dq=not so trivial facts report on China&source=bl&ots=GOvOAfQ2op&sig=AuNetw772ybW0Xu8Tz6aDilb3Jk&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=not so trivial facts report on china&f=false
    http://www.heritage.org/research/re...-currency-chinese-subsidies-and-american-jobs.
    Plus many, many more. (more than 10 pages of Google "hits.")
    Many are links to books - I suspect that the report issued as a book - why it is not "downloadable" for free.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2015
  11. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Well since you are unable to source your material I guess we really don't know what it represents. However, when numbers like this are normally used, they refer to domestic production and domestic production only. I think you are very confused. As previously pointed out to you, because your post doesn't make any kind of sense. A few years ago, a Chinese company bought Smithville Foods which is a US pork producer, so what? It doesn't change anything. It doesn't make US produced pork Chinese produced pork. You include all those goods produced in China by American owned businesses as Chinese produced. But when the same thing occurs in the US, when a Chinese firm produces goods in the US you don't want to recognize that production as American production. You want to recognize it as Chinese production. You are stacking the deck to favor China. You are not being honest, one rule for Chinese companies and another for American companies. That's the old, "one for you and ten for me" routine.

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    The unfortunate fact for you remains. China doesn't produce enough pork to meet its needs and therefore imports most of its pork from places like the US, Canada and Europe.


    No they are not bloggers, but then they don't validate your material either.

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    Last edited: Nov 16, 2015
  12. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I would agree with that POV if the Chinese company that bought Smithfield Foods were just a passive investor, but as I understand it, they are very actively managing it and even staffing it with Chinese staff as well as managers now; however, as it was already well managed, the transition to full Chinese control will no doubt take a few years.

    This is a very common pattern for the Chinese and getting them considerable hostility in their African operations. Not only do they bring in Chinese to manage the businesses they buy and staff the operations, but they even build separate new housing for them and bring in cooks etc. so they give little in the way of jobs to locals and the locals don't like the fact they keep separate in their Chinese compound and seem to think they are supperior.

    Note this photo is from US article* only about the Chinese operation and management of their US pork operations:

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    * at: http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/29/news/companies/smithfield-foods/index.html

    Shuanghui International is the world's largest producer of pork and does its own mangement and staffing of its operations, even the ones based outside of China.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2015
  13. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Well it isn't a point of view, it's the way numbers are reported. It's about using words as they are normally used and defined. You take the numbers you like and ignore the rest. That isn't how it works with honest, knowledgeable and credible folks BillyT. Also, as previously pointed out the bulk of Chinese electronic production is produced by American companies and under American management. But you have no problem crediting US production as Chinese when that scenario occurs in the US. When ownership is reversed, when goods are produced in the US under Chinese ownership and management, you want to credit China with that production also and not the US. That's not honest. That's not how production numbers are reported. Production is measured based on where the good or service is produce. It has absolutely nothing to do with ownership. That is why China is credited with producing goods American companies produce in China and not the US. You're using a China always wins no matter what paradigm that isn't based in reality. Unfortunately for you BillyT facts do matter.

    And just how is that picture the least bit relevant? You have posted it many times now in different sub-forums and multiple times within various threads, including this one. It's a picture of a Chinese worker feeding a pig in China. I don't think anyone doubts there are pigs in China and that they do get fed by Chinese workers.

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    Last edited: Nov 16, 2015
  14. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    What economic numbers of significance have I ignored?

    I think it true that Chinese salaries are lower than those in the US, but one must compare them not by managed exchange rates. For example a 1Km taxi ride in Beijing cost only about 10% of a 1Km taxi ride in NYC. In general everything is cheaper in China still even though labor costs are rising by double digits annually in real purchasing power. That is why China must now import all the low valued added items in build into the high value items it now sells globably.

    This is why Chinese trade with Indonesia, Vietnam, etc. is growing so rapidly now. The workers in those suppliers of low value items like small fans for a car's AC system, are getting wealther too and buying more Chinese made computers, digital cameras, motor bikes, TVs, cell phones, etc. now.
    to the extent that is true and the workers are at least 50% American, then I agree that is American production in China.
    And how do you know that? The photo is from a US article focused on the production and operation of the Smithfield Foods in Virginia, mainly but some about the 5 billion price paid - largest ever Chinese buying up of parts of America. Do you think they sent their photographer to China to take the photo? As I have noted, it is typical Chinese policy to replace local staff with Chinese workers, especially in Africa, as quickly as they can. The CCP wants their salaries to find their way back to China, and aid the conversion to a consummer lead Chinese economy. Many Chinese "expats" send a good fraction of the salaries back home to help their relatives still living in China. Again: How do you know picture was taken in China?
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2015
  15. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LOL, yeah, what economic numbers have you ignored.

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    I suggest you go back and read this conversation. You won't have to read far assuming you are not cognitively impaired.

    Well, I am glad you think it true Chinese salaries are lower than those in the US, because they are substantially lower and that is a very well documented fact. It's one of China's 2 competitive advantages with the other being few if any pollution controls.

    The average annual income for a Chinese worker is between 1 and 4.7 thousand dollars. That isn't a much. And yes some products are sold for less in China, but that doesn't apply to all products. Your average Chinese worker well never be able to buy even a very modest family car. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/20/world/asia/survey-in-china-shows-wide-income-gap.html

    http://chinalaborwatch.org/home.aspx

    I have no idea what you are trying to communicate here or how it might be relevant.

    Well I know that because that is not how pigs are raised in the US. Below are pictures from a real Smithfield Foods pork production facility. Having raised pigs, I do know something about raising pigs in the US. Pigs in the US are not fed grasses, especially in large pork production facilities like Smithfield, nor are they kept is concrete lined cages, nor do they eat Chinese grasses as depicted in your photo. And US pork producers certainly don't import Chinese grasses to feed their hogs. US produced hogs are feed grains, almost exclusively and food is delivered electronically not by a human manually tossing out grasses as represented in your picture. US hog production is far more efficient than represented in your photograph.


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    "Consequently, piggeries are reliant on the grains industry" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intensive_pig_farming

    Now how about answering my question, why do you keep spamming your picture?
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
  16. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    You are avoiding answering the question. (Not even clever "Duck & Weave.") Again: What significant economic facts about China have I been avoiding mentioning?
     
  17. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LOL...no I'm not BillyT. This entire conversation has been about the fact you have and continue to ignore significant economic details and more than that you distort economic data (e.g. including US production as Chinese production). All those charts you are so fond of spamming as has been repeatedly pointed out to you are misleading for reasons that have been repeated for your edification not only in this thread but others as well. This is you playing the " who me? routine yet again. You are once again not being honest BillyT.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
  18. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    No your side of the conversation has been: I am ignoring "significant eonomic details" (about the Chineses economy) and my side of that has been: to ask for one example.

    I do that again, for the fourth time, but expect you to "duck and weave" again more, instead of give an example.
     
  19. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Yes it has been, and I have explained exactly what and why many times now in this and another sub forum where you have posted the same material. I have given you many examples. In this thread and others. Either you have some serious dementia going on or you are not being honest.

    As previously discussed in this thread, you want to count goods produced in China as Chinese production and not American production. But you also want to include goods produced by Chinese companies in the US as Chinese production. As explained to you, that isn't the way it works. Goods produced in China are Chinese produced goods and goods produced in the US are US produced goods regardless of ownership.

    And then there is the matter of your omissions. You ignore the fact that while China produces pork, it imports most of its pork from Europe, Canada and the US. And you ignore the fact, that the Chinese government is known to fudge its economic data. So you really don't know with any degree of certitude whither the numbers you report are true, because their ultimate source of those numbers is the Chinese government and per previous discussions, you know the Chinese government isn't credible. China is known to fudge its economic data in order to make China's government look better. Unlike Western governments, China's government isn't transparent.

    http://www.sciforums.com/threads/bric-news-comments.84022/page-47#post-3339849

    What you do again is attempt to deceive. The only "duck and weave" going on here is you. Pretend all you will, and I'm sure you will, it will not change the facts. What you have done and what you continue to do is spam Chinese propaganda. You have been given many examples, pretend all you will, and I'm sure you will, but it will not change the facts.
     
  20. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    No not true. I told when to count goods produce by American companies in China as "American produced"
    Likewise I now add that if more than 50% of the workers in a Chinese factory are American, then what ever that factory is producing should be counted as American production, even if the production is done in China.
     
  21. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    This has not yet appeared in China Daily, but when it does, Joepistole will call it "Chinese Propaganda" I predict.
     
  22. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    * Billy T thinks that is a polite Chinese way to predict the RMB will strengthen WRT the dollar.

    It certainly should as China is world's largest trader with huge trade surpluses, not chronic trade deficits. Also China is now with less than 50% of its GDP based on exports and main maker of more more than 10 products the world needs and buys. Their factories no long need help from a de valuating RMB.
     
  23. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    On footnote of prior post, the Economists also thinks "the RMB will strength WRT to the dollar" - at an average rate of 3% per years for several years now that RMB is in the IMF's SDRs. They also have for five years now an interactive predictor as to when China surpasses the US economically at this following link, with their suggested default parameters you can change.
    (I. e. 2021)
    In some areas like global trade or fastest, most powerful computers and production of all most all types of electronic devices the Chinese have already surpassed the USA, but US's lead in spectator sports, like NFL etc games is secure for decades.

    What happens to the dollar's value when Saudi Arabia joins others in selling their oil for Yuan is any body's guess. That could be soon, especially if Americans start to object to Saudi government's beheading of poets, etc. that create displeasing poems, songs, or books. - There is a limit to even US hypocrisy. Saddam let women drive cars, go out alone at night, wear western cloths, expose their faces in public etc. and most importantly, made for a stable mid East that killing him has destroyed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015

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