child abuse and society

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You make an interesting statement " I had to learn how to be a parent because mine were not acceptable to me." You did no have any thing to do with them bringing you into this world , I would believe they give you food , shelter , clothing , send you to school. What have you done in return. The only thing you could give perhaps is obedience. And if you were disobedient I assume the made an attempt to correct you and prepare you to fit into the society.

By the way my sons are 25 and 30 years old and from time to time in their age between 5 and 14 years old they got a belt for fighting among themselves , They are well behaved and are fit in the society, one as a medical student and the other as a business manager

 

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You are a funny man. Keep this in mind to get kids attention if they don't listen , you induce fear into them and a belt does that , once you get their attention then you can talk to them and reason with them. My boys are not cruel we are a very close family , they trust me and I trust them.
"This is why we have war" The strong one wants to subdue the weaker one and want to manipulate it . And we adults don't learn from history . And American leaders don't know much history that is why about every 10 to 15 years we are at some sort of invading other nation to establish our policy.
I am proud of My father he brought me up that way and I am proud of my sons , they respect me and the society, ( the older spent 6 years in the USNavy on an Aircraft carrier as a nuclear tech. )

 

That is a horific story and I have no doubt its true, however I wonder who's fault is that?
If no one reports there concerns, if you don't seek help then how can the state possibly help you.
I agree your health care system is disgusting and its appealing that the US is basically alone in refusing to sign up to the international declaration on the rights of the child (other 2 counties are southern Sudan and rowanda but even they are moving to ratify it) but surly you have signed the charter on poverty which requires gover

However if no one takes responsibility in reporting issues then government doesn't have a hope of helping with them, it's not like there is a gov agent following everyone

edit to add: sorry its not a separt charter but part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which the US IS a signitory to

http://www.pdhre.org/rights/poverty.html

 

Wow and whoo! I am so excited. Rarely has anyone caused me to pause and reread something and think about it, as much as you have. You have said so many wonderful things, I have to chew over it in small pieces.

I was thinking of opening a thread about cohorts. A cohort is all the people born in the same culture at the same time in history. Kind of like if you are into the Beatles you are in that cohort and the next one is into Kiss. Because of this thread, I thought it would be interesting to share our different cohort information and compare. What you said about our social swings really makes me want to get into the cohort thing.

And what of science for goodness sake?! The good news is we are learning so much, and if we take a little science and a little history, stir gently and simmer, what will can we get? What makes us as we are? What really is the human condition? What morals do we want? What should family look like? Man, we need to talk about this, and doing so with someone like you is my idea of heave. I get accused of being arrogant and acting like a know it all, and I swear that isn't me. I am full of questions. No way to I want the rule of God, and telling everyone how to do things. But we need to talk because we live in the best of times, and maybe the worst of times? Both really good stuff and really bad stuff is happening, and for goodness sake this is not the first time in history major social change has caused many problems.

Thank goodness we are returning to valuing the man of the house. I lamented for years about all the research about the mother's importance and the total lack of research on the father's importance. This greatly over exaggerated the mother's importance and left her in a terrible position as the fathers dropped out. I hate war! War kills our men and returning men are messed up and the divorce rate sky rockets, and things get really messed up. We devastated the divorce laws, making marriage almost as meaningless and as a one night fling. Give the kids a break. How many of their parents were acting as though family duty is one of the most important parts of life? Who has not been acting as though all that matters is oneself? I even had a mental healthy counselor try to convince I should put myself first and I told him flat out, my values were all I had to hang on to. They are what made me strong enough to endure hard times, and taking them away from me, would destroy me. Fortunately he immediately stopped tearing away at my values. However, I must say, I seem to be seriously out of step with everyone else. Maybe you all can convince me I am wrong to put family first? I don't know if I am reading you right, but Fraggle Rocker, so far I think I really like what we are saying. Our family story would have been very different if the other half held up his part. Family is bigger than self, and the adults should not be putting themselves first and to heck with everyone else.

As for women turning gay because of being abused, I never imagined such a thing could happen, but I see it everywhere. It is really quite surprising to me, kind of like a frog growing feathers and flying away. I can handle this, but the ones who hate men and dress and act like them, really seem confused. :crazy: Like if you hate men, doesn't make more sense to be feminine? What is this, I can be a better man than you? Nuts with that.

As for the home ownership. This could become a whole different discussion. Yes, you buy the home, get to know your neighbors and become part of a community. You have not only your family history, but the history of your community. You are tied to these events and people, and don't wonder who you are. We were literally organized differently. Our relationships meant something. Well, I didn't exactly have that, but I know people who did, and in Cottage Grove I had a good part in this, as a volunteer and Toastmistress and active in the city fair and Bohemia Mining Days. I meet people who can tell me the history of where I live and I love it! We had this old time community in Cottage Grove, where I lived when my children were young. Then Cottage Grove was modernized. That modernization was really awful! The totally impersonal bureaucrats came in and replaced the good folk who knew everyone and helped everyone. I moved to the larger city ( a very small city actually) when farmers still ruled. I come from LA and thought these folks were stuck in the mud, but when things started become like LA, I realized why I was here and not in LA. It is awful what the big city folk have done to a nice community where families were still very important and most folks were farmers or lumber jacks, not office, city workers. Good and bad, everything is a mix of good and bad. But when it comes to avoiding crime- yes, home ownership and community ties are very important. But in a small town, if your family shames you, life is not so good. That tends to keep people moral, but it can be very bad if your family is shunned by everyone. Like conformity is more important in small towns, and if you are a new comer, it can be long time before being accepted into the community. Having money helps a lot and if you don't have it, that can be really bad.

 

as far as the importance of the father in the lives of the children that is another area where one of the problems is the US refusal to sign the decloration on the rights of the child. It is specified that if possible a child has a right to a relationship with BOTH parents, in cases of abuse or where one parent has chosen to move away or whatnot it might not be possible but where possible the child has that right

This is different from the univeral decloration of human rights which only mentions the mother

 

Those are really beautiful rights, and so not Republican. This is not a political forum, so maybe we shouldn't go there? However, I remember the Older Americans Act that established older Americans as people entitled to certain social benefits. I am reaping the benefit of them now and I am so thankful for the foresight to create nutrition sites and Senior Centers, and free bus passes and the ability to sit in on college classes without paying. All this is endangered now, and none of us would want to take from the children. But the Older Americans Act was to enable older people to stay engaged and continue to contribute to society as volunteers. It is not a one sided free handout for old people. But our culture has forgotten the ideals. We made some progress in uniting older people with children, but as funding gets cut these programs die. It is like our attention gets distracted by mean politics and ugly wars, and we stop being the caring people we could be.

I checked out the one service that could help my great grandson, and it depends on my granddaughter asking for the help and cooperating, and she isn't willing to do that. She was on my side of things, before her significant other came into her life. She had her son in Head Start and that was a super wonderful program that was turning him into a more cooperative boy. But when summer came and he was left with Mom, and then the other woman came in, and things have gone down hill from there. I do not like the influence that woman has had on everyone. And I can't do much if Mom doesn't ask for the help. This was a major issue for Grandparents for Family Justice, but when the Children's Services Division was totally changed, we thought our job was done and we disbanded. We were burnt out, and glad to stop. Hum, wait....., I can think of another possible resource that can kick in in another year. I think when he is a year older he can attend the Girls and Boys Club and that might help. If I mend fences with my granddaughter, maybe I can work some good?

Thanks, for your input. It is important and you are making me think, instead of giving up, I should keep trying. Don't tell anyone, but I tend to give up instead of pressing forward. It is hard for me to press forward when I get told to "stop interfering". God knows it is wrong to be an interfering grandma. But, who is going to stand up for the kid? Those two women and not doing what is right for him. The more I think on it, the more I dislike the female who is being a bad influence on my granddaughter and her son. My granddaughter and I worked together to keep her son in Head Start and we talked about how awful it was the another boy under this other woman's influence was not allowed to go to Head Start. Now my granddaughter is like her. It is like she has been taken over by the enemy, just as I feel my daughter was taken over by the enemy. They are not doing what is right for the boy, and it helps to read someone thinks people should do something when a child is at risk. My granddaughter was not like this before this woman came into the picture. She did what she could for her son.

 

Spare the rod and spoil the child. I am not so sure the belt is what made the difference, as the rest of what goes with the belt. We all need boundries and acceptance and if this goes with a spanking or belt or hickory stick, all will be okay. Perhaps without the spanking, belt of hickory sticks, things could still be okay, because it is the caring, the boundries, and acceptance that is important. For sure, not setting boundries, not being firm and consistent, and waiting for natural consequences to teach the child the lesson, IS NOT THE WAY TO DO THINGS. I tried to explain everything and if my children didn't choose to do the right thing, I relied on the consequences to correct them. Bad mistake!

And let Us be fair about this, children respond to men differently than they respond to women. Studies have shown children respond better to a male voice, and tend to ignore female voices. A female disciplining an older son, seems to threaten the boys sense of masculinity, and a daughter needs her father, if she is not going to go looking for love where she will not get it, but ends up being used. FATHERS ARE VERY IMPORTANT.

 

There was an additional help is that my boys from early age went to church with us and established friendship with other kids in church.. One thing I can say that my oldest boy went to the Navy and that messed up his life for a while , but living back with us and going to church it corrected his path , Thank God.

 

You are caught between a rock and a hard place. I’m assuming that you’ve read a great deal on antisocial personality disorder, am I right? Unfortunately, any unsolicited advice will most likely be discounted, or seen as criticism, making them even more defensive. People with ASPD will blame and claim that their problems are always situational, never acknowledging that it’s their coping mechanisms that are causing the problem in the first place. The intensity diminishes with age, which leads me to believe that over time, they can gain awareness of the consequences of their behavior, but for most of their life this behavior has worked for them.

You can only control how you respond. Be clear about what you will and will not tolerate. Tell them that you won’t tolerate your grandson being treated in that manner. Keep it short and simple, and then remove yourself from the situation. If you feel threatened, call the authorities.

Most people feel that APSD is untreatable, but if the person wants to change, substance abuse treatment, anger management, cognitive therapy, and group therapy are proven beneficial. I would suggest trying not to view them as being taken over by the enemy. Be aware of your own frustration and helplessness. There are support groups for grandparents in similar situations.

Like I said, you are caught between a rock and a hard place. Good luck!

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I totally appreciate the truth of what you said. When I was very young, I wanted to be a nun, but I can not accept the bible as a book of God's truth, and I knew being a nun would never work for me. We all need what the bible has to offer, and it would be nice if we all agreed to interpret it abstractly, instead of literally. Christians ruin things for all of us, by insisting we accept myth as truth, and saying terrible things like, "you don't know God" or "you don't know morals". Christians are their own worst enemy when comes to turning people away from God and morals. This is behind most of what I say on the internet. We need the understanding of how to live together that comes from the bible, and this needs to be the foundation of our culture as it was until recently. But before this can happen, we need to stop treating myth as God's truth, and Christians must stop insisting they know a God that can not be known, and they need to understand what logic has to do with morals. They have to end the war they have created among themselves and non Christians, and public education needs to return to education for good moral judgement. The 1958 National Defense Education Act that replaced the education we had with education for a technological society with unknown values, has ripped our children from us and is now ripping the entire nation from us. Christians are part of the problem as they want everyone to believe the are the authority on God and morals, and they pit themselves against each other and non Christians. :bawl: I am broken hearted. My grandmother was a teacher and I study the history of education, and we are not the nation we were on the path of being. I wish we would wake up one morning aware of we why need the education we had, and start healing our nation, start healing our families. :bawl:

 

Sorry Rita you have taken story op upbringing my sons as preaching. This was the rout that I have taken in my family. There are many routs people have take and your is one of them No rout is the prescription for every body , each situation becomes unique . We only realize after time have past .
Yes we believers we have a problem were each one is saying he or she is right. In the past from 200 to 2500 years what other books were available to help to curtail human selfish attitude ? but the Bible . Now we are in the modern period " exploration " but confused .

 

Arauca, you aren't understanding the intention of my words. The bible was the foundation of our culture and we were much better off for that. We need to return to the laws we had when they were based on the bible. We need to return to the culture we had while maintaining some improvements that have been made. We all need the social support that churches give people. I was alone with my children, so it was me against the whole world that didn't agree with me, in my teenagers point of view. "Everyone else ______" was a great argument, because we didn't have a church to back me up. The most horrible part of my whole life, was how alone I was with two hurt teenagers.

In the past, public education transmitted a culture, and none of us were as alone as we have been since the 1958 National Defense Education Act. We stopped transmitting our culture and left moral training to the church, and that leaves single parents very, very alone. Public education for a technological society with unknown values, has devastated our families and our nation. Like the fall of Rome, once again it is the church holding civilization and it is loosing its grip. Please come back with an expression of understanding what I am saying. :bawl:

Please here me, it was education for democracy that united our nation, not religion, and the religion problem without that education is made worse. Not long ago, we respected what others believe, and it was bad manners to discuss religion. We had agreements based on the bible, and many of these were made into laws. Christianity without this education becomes a problem, and a society without religion becomes a problem.

There is no answer for us who do not have a church. We can not find the social support we need for our families without churches and without the education that united us. I tried Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, 4 H, Tough Love, and even studied adolescent psychology in college. I was desperate to get my children the support they needed. Many women have done all they can to find a man to mentor their children. In a church a family can get this. Without a church, we can find those men our children need, unless we are very lucky. What you said is true. Our children do need a church, but there are no churches for us.

 

I am starting a thread to discuss what you said. I may go to our state capital and start lobbying for the bill you say we need.

 

Yikes! I disagree. In fact, “it has been claimed that opposition to the Convention stems primarily from political and religious conservatives.”

The United States Supreme Court stated that "the interest of parents in the care, custody and control of their children--is perhaps the oldest of the fundamental liberty interests recognized by this Court."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child#United_State s
http://presstv.com/detail/2012/12/19/278858/us-has-not-ratified-un-convention-on-child-rights/

A little dramatic but it gets the point across.
[video=youtube;_n3N5H889Ng]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n3N5H889Ng&feature=share&list=FLVfYZ7m5BJKZCJLBpKSHiFw[/video]

 

I am surprised, Happen he joined the nuclear technology and he spent most of his tine in school , the lat 2 years he spent on an aircraft carrier 4 story below the deck helping the operation of nuclear power generation . Tell me what did you do at your military drafting age ?

 

Stop this , JUST FUCKING STOP THIS BULL SHIT

Its no wonder we have abuse problems

This is just a microcosm of society

Enough .....just enough , please

Its disturbing

Smoke break ....