child abuse and society

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Rita, Mar 18, 2013.

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  1. Rita Registered Member

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    We can know more today about how to raise healthy children than in the past, thanks to all the research.

    I am not sure where the abuse started in my family. I think we all have complaints about our parents. I did not grow up in a happy family and that was painful, but I am not sure what I experienced was abuse. It was not the best possible parenting. Our understanding of good parenting has changed, and potentially we could have a better reality than ever before, but we are not getting to a better reality together.

    What I do know for sure is my daughter married an abusive man. We are talking go to prison abuse, not just personal opinion. I know my grandchildren were abused and that I was powerless to stop it. I know when I tried to stop the abuse, my oldest granddaughter thought the fighting between me and her mother was my fault. Now it is happening all over again, only this time it is my granddaughter who is the well meaning, but terrible mother, and it is her son who thinks I am bad guy, because of what happened when I tried to stop the abuse to him.

    My granddaughter is so dysfunctional, she lost her job, her apartment forced her out for behavior reasons, and she has even been thrown off the public bus. She is homeless, and can not use public transportation, and her 5 years old son is living like this, and walking many, many miles a day because they have no place to live and can not use the city bus. But the abuse does not stop here. My granddaughter is mated with another woman who was also abused and is full of anger that she constantly dumps on the child. I took them into my home, and tried to stay out of it, by staying in a back room, but how much abuse should a person ignore before "interfering"? Calmly I tried to increase awareness of the constant angry voice directed at the child, the cutting comments that were hurtful, and excessive expectations of a 5 year old child to read at a high school level book. Like the anti social mothers are home schooling and have made no effort to understand how to prepare a child for reading. He was taken out of school when he shit his pants, and the school was thrilled to see him leave. My 5 year old grandson thought it was okay to shit his pants, because the teacher did not immediately let him use the restroom. I am talking serious anti social logic here.

    They are receiving welfare and food stamps, and everyone has been to jail at least once. Let me be very clear about this. These people are a burden on society. My heart is broken and my nights are not peaceful, and my days are a constant fight against depression, because I am bonding to my family, while helpless to stop all the abuse. I am not alone. What I am talking about is behind the old people's concern that things are getting worse not better. Oh, there is research and so much potential for things to get better and better, but we are not moving in that direction together. Abuse is passed on from generation to generation, and the social burden increases as these people have children.

    What do you think about this?
     
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  3. arauca Banned Banned

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    I think the word abuse is over used . Is punishment = abuse ? what are the tools for punishment ? Are verbal punishment = to physical punishment ?
    What tools can you use to teach a child to conform to social behavior
    Do all children in the family have the same attitude ? and so on
     
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  5. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I'm not sure what kind of answer you're expecting. "This is horrible?" Of course it is, but you already know that, and any reasonable person would agree. Therefore saying so accomplishes nothing, except perhaps to slightly reinforce your bonds with the rest of the human race, which have probably been frayed by all the things that have gone wrong in your family.

    If you have great-grandchildren you might be older than me (69), but in any case you grew up in an era when all of society (family, friends, school, church, government) conspired to keep these things secret. Even pedophilia was swept under the rug in those days, corporal punishment was institutionalized in both home and school, and parents were proud if their child put on a uniform, grabbed an assault weapon, and traveled overseas to murder people who spoke a different language.

    Society has come a long way since then, but it still has a long way to go. Especially the part about wearing a uniform and murdering strangers. Unfortunately your family is a textbook example of how abuse perpetuates itself from generation to generation. This is why, even though child abuse is (thankfully) no longer as common as it once was, the majority of men in U.S. prisons are victims of it.

    I'm sure you've availed yourself of every resource available--and if you live in the USA or another prosperous Western country there are lots of resources. So there's hardly anything I can add to what you already know.

    All I can say is that I'm really sorry to hear your story. I never became a father because I was positive that I would not have been a good one, after being raised by my own selfish and incompetent parents. But your experience makes them look like saints. I'm crying for you already, hoping no one stops by my office with a question.

    Keep trying and keep hoping. That's all any of us can do.
     
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  7. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    I can only speak about how things are in South Australia, but here you don't have to make a determination of abuse, that is for the police and the courts. However if you suspect a child is at RISK then if your a mandatory reporter you have to report and if I was you I WOULD report it. That doesn't mean anyone is going to go to jail, at risk could mean that they are homeless and need more support, could mean they need counciling etc, its better to get in before it becomes a matter for the police

    The international decloration on the rights of the child mandate that the government is REQUIRED to help a child in need even if that is just they are living in poverty
     
  8. arauca Banned Banned

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    The same services are available here , there are many church organization who offer for battered mothers with children living shelters and they don't have to go through police.
     
  9. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Rita, you aren't helpless. You are free to set up rules within your house, and demand that abusive behavior to stop on condition of them losing their room. Have a talk with the mother, not the kid.
     
  10. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    You dont say what kind of a household your daughter grew up in.

    What did you do to try to stop the abuse? I find it puzzling that both your grandchild and great grandchild point to you as a bad guy.
     
  11. arauca Banned Banned

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    Normally children will site with the mother , and if grandmother does not give them what thy want then you are bad .
     
  12. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    Your not Rita.
    Normally, children are not abused.
    Normally, parents dont have to fight with their grown children over abuse.
    Normally, children dont get in-between adults who are having a disagreement.
     
  13. Rita Registered Member

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    Thank you everyone. I don't know where to go from here. I don't like being personal with strangers, but wanted help sorting things out, and I appreciate your efforts.

    I see this as a social problem, knowing bad parenting is the source of social problems, and wondering what might society do to prevent the problem? Teachers know when a child is headed for trouble, and there doesn't seem anything they can do about it. Head Start teachers worked miracles on my great grandson, but the good they achieved was ruined over the summer, and the kindergarten teachers were just glad to get rid of him.

    Many years ago, when I was on school discipline committee we addressed this problem. It was suggested when a child is anti social and getting into trouble, the school should provide the child counseling. Someone objected and said, the school should not have the authority to put a child in counseling. Essentially, if the parents are bullies and thieves and are raising their children with such anti social values, that is the parents right, and school is not to interfere. I agreed with this argument. I also pulled away from my daughter and her children, when I saw the abuse, objected to it, and was told to stop interfering. That is the rule right? Grandparents should not interfere and state/school authority over children is not a good thing, right? Only in extreme cases of child abuse should anyone interfere. Mild, daily verbal abuse, subjecting children to violent TV programming, and teaching a child to be anti social, is a parent's rights, right? All we can do is wait until the victimized child breaks the law and is arrested, and then society punishes the young person, and we pay for this with our tax dollars.

    My daughter's convict husband was raised with abuse. His mother fled the abuse and when she thought she could take care of her children, she tried to get them from her abusive husband, but the state would not let her have the children. Again and again she reported the abuse and the state would not take her children from the father. The two oldest boys have spent most their lives in prison. They were out long enough to have children, and to destroy their lives. Moving along. When I pleaded with the children services division to protect my grand children, at first they didn't act, and then when they did take the children, they refused to give the children to me, and traumatized them even more. We would have lost them for life, but I joined other grandparents and was able to get the state to return the children to my daughter, when their father was in prison. But my daughter took him back when was released and the state allowed this to happen! The second time the state took the children, they were given to me, and a school principle made sure my grandson received a special award in a big ceremony for students who had turned their lives around. When my daughter got her life back together for the second time, I gave the children back to her along with the home we were living in. How do I say? I know more than I wish I did, and that does not answer my questions. How bad do things have to be, and then who should have the authority to decide when something needs to be done, and what should be done?

    My daughter knows her children were abused and that as adults they have serious problems, but she is blind to the abuse her grandson is living with, and my granddaughter and her mate think their abusiveness is normal because that is what the grew up with, and they seem think as long as they don't beat the child, they are being good mothers to him. They think dressing him like a girl and having him perform in shows done by homosexuals is something he chooses to do. If sexual identify were the only issue, I would let it go, but it is not the only issue. I am more concerned about the constant anger and tyranny, mixed with anti social behaviors such as shitting his pants and the mother's behaviors that got her thrown off the bus, fired and thrown out of her apartment.

    The sexual identity issue is more like being black in prejudice white community. Only looking and acting as they do, isn't equal to being Black in a prejudiced neighborhood. They create themselves as different and flaunt this and push it in everyone's faces, and then scream about how awful everyone is to them, as though everyone else were creating the problem, not them. In their minds, getting rejected by their neighbors and thrown off the bus, is not about what they are doing, but about people being mean to homosexuals. They spent one night with me and I know realized why people say they are afraid of these girls. I thought both my legs were going to be broken and I will not allow them in my home again. In the mean time, my 5 year old great grandson thinks I am the bad guy, because of the blow up following me trying to make his two mother's aware of the constant anger being dumped on him. I swear, I was as calm and gentle about pointing out angry voices every time the child turned around is not good, as I could be, knowing no one likes to be corrected, and finding myself in a violet situation fearing my legs would be broken is far beyond anything I expected to happen. When my great grandson is 8 and no longer as compliant to their demands as he is now, the shit is really going to hit the fan, and I won't be there, because I am pulling out. The child thinks I am the bad guy. This is what happened with my grand daughter 20 years ago. She thought I was the bad guy, when I tried to stop the abuse, and her Mom, my daughter, got furious with me.

    Anyway teachers know when something is wrong in a child's life and all they can do is punish the child, and punish the child, and punish the child, because no can help the child as the child needs help, unless like the Head Start program, the school is geared to deal with difficult children and the parents in a constructive way. They see bad children. They know the home is bad. As a society, we are not managing this well. But what can be done? Head Start might have saved this child, but it didn't last long enough.
     
  14. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Not allowing children to go to the bathroom is also abuse.
     
  15. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry thats crap, EVERYONE involved with children has a responsibility to a) provide a safe enviroment and b) report a child at risk, that goes for parents, adult siblings, grandparents and other adult family (though that is an ethical responsibility) as for those proffessionally involved in Health, Education, Child care and Childrens activities (like sports), politics, the law, public service and religion and this goes for both paid and volly, there is a LEGAL requirement in Australia to report a child AT RISK not just a child being abused. If I as a volly get dispatched to a house fire where a family has lost there house and all there posetions that is a family AT RISK and needs to be reported, if someone comes to me and says they are going to lose there house because they cant pay the morgage that is AT RISK and needs to be reported, if someone says they are suffering depression and want to kill themself and have kids those kids are AT RISK and it needs to be reported. In NONE of those cases would it be a legal matter, its a matter of providing suport to that family finatially, emotionally, medically whatever is needed but I'm legally obliged to get them that help by reporting it
     
  16. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    My great grandmother was a huge normalcy in my life. My parents were more than willing to dump me off on relatives so they could have the weekend to themselves; giving me a place to go without the stress. I basically spent my first 5 years with great grandma while mom worked and dad went to school, then my aunt spent the weekends taking care of us while the parents went out and partied.

    There is some truth to grandparents and unintended interference. I have yet to meet a grandparent who, on reflection, doesnt wish they had done something different in their own parenting and its sometimes hard not to try to change the past via the babies of the present.

    That happened to a friend of a friend. NOTE to anyone reading this, If you are fleeing an abuser TAKE THE KIDS too. The courts will award custody to that abuser because leaving them behind is abandonment in the courts eyes.

    So how did she do with the kids the second time around?

    Well thats good they are not physically abusing him.

    You have probably already looked into it via the www but incase you havent, look into encopresis. This may be unrelated to the home situation.

    Why didnt she go to her mothers home? Mom's given up? Moms been there done that?

    So next time she is homeless, offer a home for the boy but not her.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_mentality
     
  17. Rita Registered Member

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    Milkweed, Thank you so much. I swear I would not be talking about this stuff on line if I didn't think we could do better, and if I didn't hope maybe such discussion will help someone. You are so right about the warning. It is a terrible truth that leaving children to escape abuse is likely to guarantee the children will be stuck with the abuser. On the other, what can a poorly educated woman do? She can not possibly support her children and pay for child care, because she can not earn enough. Welfare is not enough to pay rent, and you can forget paying for other expenses. Our assistance programs are totally unrealistic. This is largely why women stay with abusive husbands, but not the only reason for sure.

    For sure we learn a lot over the years! Remember Doctor Spock? I think he lead to overly permissive parenting. I can be faulted for that. I did not understand the importance of teaching discipline. I thought all the childhood problems would go away as a child grew up. Personally I was a very good child. I was born a care giver, and always thought my function in life was to please others. I could not comprehend other possible goals, such as a desire to get away with what one knew was wrong. I would go into a state of shock when either of my children did something really wrong, and unfortunately although I was married, their father was not interested in being a father. Well, love is not the cure all I thought it was, and Children do not just naturally grown up. I have studied what went wrong and how things are done better, ever since things went very wrong many years ago. Come on, we just do not know all things when we are young. I think our technological society has made a terrible mistake to believe public education teaches us everything we need to know, and old people have no value.

    I will immediately look up encopresis. I have no idea what that is.

    We are all renters and none of us can allow my grand daughter to stay for more than two weeks. Her insistence keeping a dog, makes the risk of us being evicted even greater. My daughter and her daughter lived in the same apartment complex, separate apartments, and the property managers do not want her there. My daughter risk evictions when she allows her daughter to stay. I am very worried for all of them. In the 1940 tys, Oregon law said family must help family. Today our laws protect property, not families. That is a big part of the problem.

    To clarify, my grand daughter and her mate and my great son, are on the streets. It is illegal for them sleep on the streets, and property law prevents us from making them safe. Because homeless people must hide from the police, they are in greater risk. Because it is illegal for them sleep on the streets, and because they do look for shelter on private property, they could end up in jail, and my great grandson could be made a ward of state. This is a real nightmare, and the general public has no idea how bad things are. My neighbors are very afraid of homeless people, and when a neighbor heard my grand daughter raging in the hall way, she called 911. My own grand daughter is acting like the people my neighbors fear.

    When I was young, it was important to be tough. That meant wearing all black, preferably leather, and smoking. You know like the movie Grease. I was a Greaser. Before that I thought I wanted to be a beatnik even though I didn't know any. I was married and had my first child, and was buying a house, before I heard of hippies. My younger sister was a hippie and I thought that was really cool. I pretty much stayed true to 1950 values, but trying to be as the Earth Mother goddess was compatible with being a full time wife and mother. Life was much easier than. I had no idea how bad things could be. Now I have a completely different understanding of being tough.
     
  18. Rita Registered Member

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    You say what? Welcome to the US, the richest country in the world, where a mother with children can die in her home because of untreated cancer, and it might be days before someone realizes young children are in a house with a dead mother. I volunteered for St Vincent de Paul, a charity organization, and I had to quit because I could not cope with mothers being homeless with their children. It hurt too much. We have increased services to those in need, since I was an advocate for the homeless, but back than I knew there was no place for the mother and children. Now there are places but they are full, and people are on waiting list waiting for help. Those who are at risk are pretty much on their own. Only if it is obvious a child is being badly abused, will the state step in and then they will take the child, and put the child in a foster home, where they likely to be abused. When I was fighting for my grandchildren at least one child was killed in foster care and that help the united grandparents in getting policy changed. When my grand children were made wards of the state and returned to their mother a year later, they were like wild wound animals. They were completely out of control, and would bite and kick her. She was a real hero as she lovingly made them as domesticated human beings. Then her husband was released from prison and it all went wrong again. Our experience when the children were wards of the state, was a nightmare, and I do not think of the state as people to turn to for help. It is hard to know what is worse, bad parents or state intervention.

    People in the US believe they have the best nation in the world. They have no idea how primitive they are compared to other civilized countries.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
  19. Rita Registered Member

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    We all thought the school policy was wrong. Kindergarten children could use the restroom 10 minutes before going out to play, but not during recess when their bowels are most likely to be activated. Another reason my granddaughter took him out of school, is he was set off by himself during the school day. Not the isolation room that is used to discipline children, but set apart from the other children. There is a struggle going on at the state level to prevent schools from putting children in isolation rooms, that are designed for punishment. There are no chairs or pillows in these rooms, and the purpose is discipline. This does not teach a child how to succeed, but can be damaging to the child.

    I was a school volunteer for a short time. Only a short time because the after school program was so awful. The school has many Mexican children and one little boy was always getting into trouble. It was obvious he was getting into trouble, because he could read not and no one cared that he was struggling, they just didn't want him to be a problem to them. I fought for him to get the special attention he needed and sure enough, the behavior problem stopped. But as I saw more and more abuses, it was obvious I could not continue. I am quite sure, the more we cut school budgets the more we turn to disciplining children, instead of giving them special help.

    But that said, I also think it was more effective to ask my grandson if the teacher could shit her pants, than to go to his defense. While he thought it was okay for him to shit his pants, he did not think it was okay for the teacher to shit her pants. I am not sure, but I think he has changed his mind about it being okay to poop in his pants. I can not change school policy, but hopefully my grandson will become a child teachers like, instead of a child they are glad to get rid of. However, his mother will not help him be a child teachers like, and this makes me feel terrible, because he will never have the opportunity he would have if teachers liked him.
     
  20. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

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    ...and I do not. You and I have disagreed on this topic before. We come from different cultures and have different views of how to treat other persons - especially children.

    Like Frag, I come from a different time than many here. When it was OK to beat your child or wife, drunk driving was acceptable and you could get away with discharging a firearm in your back yard. Things have changed and now such actions are not acceptable. Part of why this has come about is by us victims talking about what was done to us by whom.

    It is said that much of the pain we suffer is due to our choice of attachments - what we want and desire. This is something we can affect, though that can be difficult. We each must know our limits and stay within them. It is very difficult to change from the role of parent to grandparent to great - grandparent, but that is each of our' task to accomplish. If we are lucky enough to live that long.

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    I had to learn how to be a parent because mine were not acceptable to me. I learned and broke the cycle of abuse for my line. It took a lot of work for along time, but that was well worth it.

    Best of luck to you, at least you are reaching out and searching for answers.

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  21. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    Sounds to me like your still kinda going into that state of shock when something goes really wrong.

    I did not suggest the grand daughter should be allowed to stay, only the great grandson. She is making bad choices without thought into cause/effect and that is demonstrated by her insistence on keeping a dog she should not have. It is selfish behavior; she has a child she cant take care of, she has a girlfriend she cant take care of and a dog she cant take care of. And its everyone else's fault.

    A renter is a paying guest in someone else's house. Hotels have rules too and you can be tossed out if you dont follow those rules. Many people wont rent anymore because of the abuses to their property by people who wont follow the rules (like getting a dog).

    You dont need laws family should help family.

    You fear your grand daughter because of HER behavior. Its not just the neighbors.

    I dont know if its possible, but my suggestion is talking to the landlord about the grandson living with your daughter (or you). Your grand daughter signing custody over to her mom and the land lord getting a restraining order on the grand daughter (and her girlfriend if needed) if there is any outburst. Arrange for visitation at your house on weekends but no girlfriend. If grand daughter doesnt like it, well then you need the state to step in. The kid is not in school and thats against the law too and it is the grand daughter breaking the law. Legally, she is not providing a home for a minor child, basic care issues.

    Shes a grown up and has to be held to that standard regardless of her past. Took your daughter two shots to get her act together but it involved having her children taken away. Twice. Maybe it will only take the grand daughter once to pull her head out and grow up.
     
  22. Rita Registered Member

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    We come from the same period in time. When I came of age, females were expected to be full time mother's and wives, and I know the bad of this, but I also know the good of it. I was in school when the 1958 National Defense Education was enacted and teachers were shocked the day they were told the purpose of education had been changed. When those right behind me came of age, Women's Liberation changed everything for women and families, and the idea of family duty no longer exist.

    We have been through very hard times; the type of social changes that are dramatic but are not the part of the explanation of history. However, Blacks do keep their history alive. Every Martin Luther King Day comes with a week of Black history. We are not doing this with women's history. Anyway, women's liberation is one of the things that hit my family hard, considering my husband liked to play the field and didn't like being a family man, so he welcomed liberation, along with many other husbands, at a time when we were in a recessions, and people without 5 years work experience were not competitive for jobs. Up to this point, I had romantic notions of poverty being something noble. We thought poverty was "a meaning experience" those of us "born White and middle class could never have". When the economy dumps, and opportunity disappears, and no one has the extra money to help others, poverty is only destructive. It destroys the family and individuals. This is what happened to my children's generation, and not long after, we reported a national youth crisis. What was going wrong in my family, was going wrong all across the nation.

    We have sort of a mixed bag right now. I see wonderful improvements, and some real troubling things. Social break down is essential to social change, but we don't seem to share agreements about what is good change and what is not. Education for a technological society with unknown values, is not preparing the young for life, as education once did. Change has destroyed the social control of media that was once very strong, exposing children to a world without any established social norms/ values, and expecting parents to some how convince children of the difference between right and wrong, when there is no social agreement!

    This change in education shifted the standard of parents being the authority, to the school being the expert and authority over children. During the recession our lives were very hard when my X left, and well meaning school staff helped my daughter move to her aunt's in a different state, without speaking to me about this. They allowed her to use school phones to make long distance calls to her aunt, and told her they would give her a ride to the Gray Hound bus station after she arrived at school. This totally destroyed any parental authority I had. Now throw in drugs and peers who also were dealing with broken families, when we "liberated women" and had a recession. Excuse me, but I think we should be talking about our history and the national youth crisis, as we talk about Black history. We didn't suddenly have a flood of bad parents, we had war, economic boom and crash, a dramatic change in public education, and social upheaval. I am glad older people are posting, because I am not getting the attacks that are common. However, I am bracing for them. The response to what I have just said, is normally attacks. We have gone from respecting our elders to insulting them, from being proud of our country, to thinking only negative things of it. This is what happened to Germany when the Prussians took over and destroyed German's hero, and prepared everyone for a military, industrial complex, or what Hitler and Bush call the New World Order. We just are not organized by family order as we once were. Changes were needed, but it is not all good, so I write of the issues that have come up.

    I think we have reduced child abuse. We are not beating the devil out of our children and that is a good thing. But broken families and an amoral society is not good either. And we are not helping our children in the US as much as some countries are helping their children. I thank God we do not live in an inner city ghetto, where children grow up with so much violence it is assumed normal.
     
  23. Rita Registered Member

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    :thankyou:

    I can not tell you how wonderful it feels to have agreement! It is like rain following a long drought or sunshine following a long cloudy winter. I don't know why my daughter's logic is so screwed up, except she had a lousy education in rural schools, and her father hated the fact that I read books, and got abusive when I dare to return to college. If we had had internet back then, perhaps I could have stayed home like a good wife without thinking I would loose my sanity if I didn't have intellectual stimulation. We met in college for goodness sake, and he didn't want a wife that reads? I think my daughter got her logic capacity from him. Anyway, she defends the girls right to have a dog, and 100% buys into the BS that her neighbors are just prejudiced against gays. Excuse me?! They could not leave the dog at home because it barked so much, so they fought to ride the bus with the dog, and got thrown off. It was months before they were allowed to ride the bus again, and they did this again?! No kidding, it is a different dog, one that doesn't bark, but this time they don't have a home where they can leave the dog, so they fight to keep the dog on the bus, and get thrown off again. It will be months before they are allowed back on the bus, if ever.

    It is very hard to find a place to rent with a dog. They do not have the money to take care of themselves, let alone a dog. :splat: And her mother, my daughter, defends the girls' right to have a dog, and insist the dog is not the problem. It was unruly dogs that got them on the streets and thrown off the bus twice, and the problem is not the dog?

    As for the rest of what you said, I agree, but if the girls don't have the child, they don't get the welfare check. My daughter will not take in the child. He is extremely difficult to be with for more than a couple of hours, and she works. And heck, the problem begins with her. Her logic is as bad as theirs. Last time my granddaughter was homeless I did have her son. I know I can do that where I live and thanks to you all, I remember there is special school for troubled children near my home. I have to check that out today. However, everyone is thinking I am the bad guy and they would hate my soul if I put the child in school. Too bad. If things fell that way, that is what I would do. But I think they all would fight me, and I can not do anything without their cooperation. Which I had last time, before my granddaughter hooked up with the gal she is with now. This gal has been on the streets for years, and was like a ferrel cat when we met. She has become more domesticated, and my granddaughter has changed for the worse!
     
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