Chicago to hire 111 Black Firefighters

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by madanthonywayne, Aug 18, 2011.

  1. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member


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    But aren't "firemen" all pyros just by their job anyway? :shrug:
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    And has that happened? Were the standards better during slavery when blacks were excluded from participation in society? Why do whites feel so entitled - why keep punishing the blacks for their skin colour and the cumulative effects of discrimination? Even when they are provided opportunities it is still a burden that blacks have to tolerate and suffer through. They still have to bear up the burden and anxiety of being discriminated for.
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  5. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

    We are now living in a different time and place, thankfully. Today there are many more opportunities than ever were before for many minorities not just blacks but women too. Although the past was a very bad blemish upon the white society of that day there are more improvements being awarded minorities than ever before in the US history. While those endeavors aren't yet the "equalization" that many want it at least is going the right direction. If you can't see that there has been many improvements since the days of slavery then you really don't have a very good idea of what's been happening during the past 50 years or so. More is needed to be done to insure that progress is made but I would think that improving the educational system would be the best target to undertake today. Education that's paid for by society as a whole has gone backwards in many instances while private education is going faster forwards.

    I don't believe that whites feel "entitled" to a certain degree but do want to be tested as fairly as possible against any other person. Again I stress that only through education will more things change for the better for everyone concerned. I agree that there are minorities that do get a very wrong deal but not as much as they did 50 years ago. Things are changing but take time to overcome the fears and racism that still exists in todays society. I believe that the only way to comprehend what's going on is just look who is now the President of America and that states a very positive thing of tolerances against any minority don't you think so too?
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    You mean, they want other people to not discriminate against them, even though they still discriminate against other people? Ironically, whites will no longer feel discriminated against, the day they are able to extend that same courtesy to other people. And I speak from the vantage point of having experienced said racism. I don't think the fact that a few blacks getting job opportunities commensurate with their population is really a big enough deal to cry a river over. Its only a bandage after all since most blacks still live in appalling conditions, being punished for their race, their name and their skin colour, none of which they have any individual control over. I find all this whining over blacks getting a small proportion of quotas really laughable, considering the extent of their problems in society

    As for standards, lets hear about your experiences with blacks in quota given jobs and how they failed to meet your expectations of quality service.
  8. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

    When serving in the military I didn't have any problems with any of the minorities that were along side me. I had a minority supply sargent, amongst others, that never gave anyone, that I know of, any problems. So my dealings with minorities have been limited to say the least but when I was working with them I never found any differences as you seem to suggest. But that is my life not someone else's and that's all I can enlighten you too.
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Sure it is, if we set aside the fact that for many years sports scholarships were the only route of entry for blacks into the hallowed halls of education.

    Its interesting that Berkeley has no quota for minorities. I'm not surprised that Asians are over represented since education and its importance is drilled into us with mothers milk [it would be interesting to compare how many of those Asians are foreign students and how many Asian Americans second generation onwards are represented in uni - I have a feeling that Americanised Asians are as bad as other Americans when it comes to education]

    Meanwhile I looked up the racial distribution of educational attainment

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    What do you think of that?

    We're arguing without facts. Are there any statistics of increased risks posed due to black firefighters being taken on?

    And yet you speak of lowered standards due to the quota system. So what is that based on? What have you experienced that leads you to believe that inducting blacks based on quota would lead to a lowering of standards?
  10. superstring01 Moderator

    An interesting and supporting article in the Wall Street Journal.

  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Except for the piano and violin [we couldn't afford a piano although I wanted to learn it and only my brother was interested in a violin - and got it], yes thats pretty much it.
  12. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

    Those Asians have the right idea. That's why they have no need for "affirmative action" and are actually hurt by it. I'm pretty strict myself, but those Asians blow me away. Good for them.
    So you're arguing that hiring based upon race is perfectly fine? Then why must it be in favor of minorities? They (except for Asians who commit the sin of working hard) certainly seem to do worse on entrance exams. Perhaps we should just exclude them from consideration and save the trouble of even testing them.

    Discrimination by race is either right or wrong. Claiming it is Ok when used to benefit a prefered group is the exact same logic used to justify Jim Crow, or Apartide, or even slavery itself.

    I believe racism to be wrong because it ignores the rights of and the distinctiveness of the individual. What about you? If you are against racism, tell me why. Then explain how you can, within the context of that reason, justify racial discrimination in hiring practices.
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Good for you. So instead of targeting the opportunities provided to marginalised minorities, how about you spend your angst in targeting the racism that makes affirmative action necessary?

    What I notice is that inspite of quota systems, they seem to be getting their educations without complaining about quotas for blacks. Maybe right there is something else you need to consider. If quota systems are set aside for merit, all the choice positions will be occupied by Asians, because if there is one thing we do well, it is test scores.

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    Btw, if Chinese methods produce such prodigies why is it that its the Chinese that move to the US and not Americans that move to China. Something else to consider

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  14. superstring01 Moderator

    Well, for certain, there's a lot more freedom in the USA. And some of it has corrupted us on many levels, but I'd prefer this existence to the hive existence in China or Japan. India seems to do better on many levels (freedom) while still instilling great educational standards in their kids.

    I think that the mother in the article goes a bit far. My parents were too lax. My best friend's parents were right on. They engaged in extra-curricular activities, but rule number one: perfect grades. The mother was a "stay at home" mom who spent the evening sitting with and studying with her kids. No excuses. You got good grades in their house or suffered the consequences.

    But music, sports and whatnot were the kids' choice, but exceptional performance was nonetheless expected in them as well.

    All six of their kids are all well balanced and reasonably successful. 5 of six with degrees. 3 with graduate degrees. My friend ended up as the youngest superintendent of a major school system in the state of Ohio-- 28. There is something about having passion, drive, determination and a sense of "disgust" for anything but the best being drilled into you from an early age.

    And these weren't "strict" parents in the traditional sense. They weren't religious ("lax" Catholics describes them best). There weren't "profanity" rules in their house (we could swear, which was really weird), they bought condoms for their sons and had the daughters on the pill. Dr. N. (the dad) forwent private practice so that he could have work life balance and be the baseball coach of the local team. I've given this example before: When one of their sons was caught listening to a rap song about "rape", they didn't freak out. All the sons were promptly taken to a rape crisis center to know what rape was. No need to tell the kids to "not listen to that music." My dad burned the tapes. I got new ones. My best friend and his brothers got rid of them on their own because they were educated to do so. I rebelled while Kyle just matured. That's amazing parenting. They were, IMHO, the best parents I've ever seen. And the mom and dad were passionately in love with each other. Also a big bonus when you're parenting six kids.

  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    It's part of a larger theory intended to forestall improving race relations

    The theory here is that racism existed once upon a time, and doesn't really anymore insofar as there are no effects left from racism.

    Therefore, corrective measures against the effects of racism are in and of themselves racist. It is simply an update of an older argument.

    What the theory overlooks, of course, is reality.

    As long as proponents believe there is no more racism, and that a black person born today faces no greater challenges in society than a socioeconomically equivalent white person, the argument makes sense.

    However, we know its presuppositions are untrue. In the end, then, these people are actually advocating white supremacy.

    Despite evidence that some people still suffer the effects of racism, and others still enjoy the benefits thereof, these people believe that racism is over and done with.

    Remember here who you're dealing with: This is the guy who says people aren't really racist, but, rather, are so upset about a fantasy Obama that they're willing to say racist things. This is a guy who thinks accusations of racism are baseless, but also believes that substantiating those accusations should be forbidden.

    He wouldn't actually advocate the continued suppression of minorities in this country. At least, I don't think he would. He just doesn't believe it happens.

    At least, that's as near as I can figure. The only part of it that makes sense to me is that it seems to fit with the rest of his outlook on racism.
  16. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

  17. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

    I oppose racism across the board, can you say the same? I don't think so since you seem to support it if it is in favor of the "right" race.
    Really? Check out these links:

    Asians Against Affirmative Action

    Racism against Asians in Affirmative Action

    Rejected Applicant Alleges Bias Against Asians
    I want the most qualified person to fill those positions. I don't give a shit what race those people are.
    Chinese methods of child rearing in the context of a free market economy and an open society are quite effective. How that would translate into Americans wanting to move to China is a bit unclear since we would then be applying American methods of child rearing in a much more closed and controlled society.
  18. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    How about you start by at least aknowledging the numerous times that we've discussed this stuff with you before? It's kind of rude and oblivious to attempt to sweep all of that stuff under the rug, and just re-boot the whole discussion. Or, worse, maybe it's a calculated tactic.

    Well, that and the fact that the Asians in question are immigrants from the upper socioeconomic strata of their respective home countries and not, y'know, starving agricultural laborers or the descendents of dispossessed chattell slaves.

    And the fact that we're ignoring all of the Asians that don't fit this (affluent northeast/south) Asian stereotype - there's plenty of academically and socioeconomically "underachieving" Philipino and Vietnamese and Hmong and etc. communities to be found in the USA. Heck, there's plenty of low-status Indian-Americans as well, although these days they seem to get overshadowed in the popular imagination by the concentrations of South Indians in Silicon Valley and the like.

    Why? Isn't it possible that discrimination has no inherent moral status of its own, and is only imbued with such by how it figures into larger sociopolitical systems that have morally salient effects on people?

    Wait, are we talking about "racism" or "discrimination by race" here? Those aren't the same thing.

    This is another topic that we have already discussed with you, at great length, repeatedly in the past here. I'm having a hard time believing you don't know what the standard arguments here would be - and they're part of the settled body of law that you claim to want to interrogate in your OP, to boot. Which makes this challenge-from-ignorance look very much like a calculated, bad-faith tactic.
  19. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Uh... Indian Americans might do well at this, but I'm not sure we can recommend India, as such, so highly. The literacy rate there is about what you find (on average) in sub-Saharan Africa. As are most indices of education in India. Lots of poor people there, even if there are plenty of whip-smart upper-class types who crowd the ranks of top engineering programs the world over.
  20. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    No, you don't. You oppose "discrimination" across the board, and pointedly refuse to come to grips with how that relates to "racism." In point of fact, you rarely ever voice any such opposition except when it's to oppose discrimination that might chip away at white privilege - which is to say that you are a consistent, vocal supporter of racism.

    I can't recall you ever saying anything whatsoever that I could take seriously as opposition to genuine racism. But I routinely see you post material that is openly racist - and not just your consistent opposition to affirmative action. You also routinely embrace racial stereotyping (violating the individualist conception you claim as the moral foundation of your opposition to any and all discrimination): the stuff about how hard-working and upright Asians are, or how disparate impacts prove that whichever other minorities are inherently inferior, etc.

    Who do you think you're fooling, at this late juncture?

    What if race itself goes directly to qualifications? Would you be in favor of racial discrimination in the hiring of, say, social workers who'd be servicing communities of some specific racial demographics?

    More to the topic: how does one measure "qualifications?" How does one make sure that any such method of measurement, is not itself racially biased in subtle ways?

    Quite effective at what?

    Attaining college admission? I suppose so.

    But if you dig into the model minority stereotypes a bit, you'll find it's much more equivocal than it might appear at first glance. The stuff about household income exceeding the national average, for example, evaporates once you correct for the fact that Asian Americans are highly concentrated in expensive coastal cities. I'm not sure how you'd even correct for the fact of Asian Americans being disproportionately selected from the upper-middle and upper classes of their home countries, but that just goes to show how apples-vs-oranges the comparisons underpinning these stereotypes are.
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    What about Jews? Jewish tend to disproportionately (by %) go on to attempt, and succeed, in higher education. Are Jewish mothers "Chinese" mothers? Is it Jewishness or Germanness (as most Jews in America are Germanic).

    Just a thought.

    My family is German. My grandmother's mother was Jewish. No one in my family is Jewish - Catholic or "Protestant/made up American religion

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    at best (not really religious for that matter, although they dislike the idea of me being atheist [even Buddhist would be better than atheist!]). Interestingly, my grandmother is the ONLY person in the family who encouraged any decent amount of study. My mother was valedictorian for her school. Sadly she never went on to do anything as getting married and out of the house was her main goal. Most everyone in my family told me attending university was a waste of time and that I should get a job. Luckily a teacher persuaded me to take the SAT/ACT and I got a scholarship and thought... what the hell.

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    Also, ironic enough, luckily there were no good jobs to get.
  22. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member


    Did you read those links? Most of them are protesting restricting Asian enrollment in favour of whites, not black quotas and you have only one Asian student using the study by Princeton professors which indicates that whites would not be affected if minority quotas were removed. I find that hard to believe given my experience with white, Asian and black students.

    Not surprisingly:

    I have to say, this reminds me very much of caste politics in India.

    Then why don't you campaign against the discrimination of blacks in housing, education and employment?

    Only as long as they follow the authoritarian model which is prevalent in China. Would you subscribe to an authoritarian society for all? You said that you are a strict parent. Do you think the model of Chinese society would make better performers out of Americans?

    Yeah it will be interesting to see how that would pan out, since those children would have to go out and compete in a strict unforgiving and authoritarian society.

    Also the point which quadrophonics makes about Asians in the US, they come from upper middle class or wealthy families and do not have a history of slavery in the US nor are they viewed as sub-human [anymore] - the Asian stereotype has changed a lot in the last few decades which has worked to their benefit. Hopefully, it is now time to upgrade the blacks in the US

    I would say rather it fits in with the rest of his politics. I have noted that it is a characteristic of those who believe in the trickle down approach that they resent any "restriction on the rights" (as they view it) of the upper strata of society and believe that any opportunities provided to the marginalised are taking away from those who "work hard" or "deserve" it. Such people also generally feel that it is a waste of social capital to expend it on the stupid and lazy [which is how they generally view people who lack wealth] who in their opinion simply need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps

    This is not unique to rightwingers in the US - we frequently see Brahmins making an ass of themselves over the quota system accorded to Dalits

    I believe Chua addresses this in her book, that the actions of well meaning parents can also push children in the other direction. It can either make the child's spirit or break it. And the other point: that succeeding at education does not necessarily mean succeeding in everything else as well.

    Does that sound familiar?


    I would say that most Asians practise either authoritarian or authoritative parenting. The lax parent who gives freedom to the child is alien to the Asian psyche - that role, of pampering is fulfilled by other members of the family.

    The literacy rates in India are better than are usually assumed [though much lower compared to neighbours like Sri Lanka, Iran and of course China]. Its the literacy rates in English which may not be that great, but in another decade or so, I think we will see rapid changes in that as well with Dalit groups exhorting their children into English medium schools. Regardless of literacy status, the attitude towards education and the role of parenting is the same as what Chua has demonstrated across a wide strata of Indian society. Where it suffers is in the same socioeconomic groups which are also undermined by the caste system. i.e. some people consider themselves "not good enough" to aim for those goals of scholastic success. Interestingly, I have seen this attitude to persist even in the face of the acquisition of wealth and other social status.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2011
  23. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

    Sure, we've (meaning you and I) discussed affirmative action before. So what? You stated your opinion. I stated mine. No one was convinced and we went about our day.

    Now this topic is once again in the news so I brought it up again. Perhaps this time the discussion will be more productive.
    Racism without discrimination is nothing but a thought crime. It is the discrimination that is bad, not the racism.
    See the above.
    What twisted logic.
    Please provide some openly racist quotes. Here's a link for you:
    The Asian mother post was in response to String's quote on the subject. A general discussion of a cultural phenomenon among a certain group is not racist.
    If said demographic had a unique subculture (like the Amish, for instance) it would probably be reasonable to have people on the job who understood that culture. I would imagine that a test could be given that would test one's knowledge of the culture or subculture in question, thus avoiding an openly racist hiring policy.

    However, I will admit that that might be a rare situation in which race could actually be a legitimate consideration. Even then, we're really talking more about knowledge and familiarity with a particular subculture than race. Some black kid from the suburbs would probably be just as clueless when it comes to dealing with people from the inner city as a white kid from the suburbs.
    Off the top of my head, by designing the test such that it tests knowledge and skills one will actually need on the job. By being sure that everyone has access to the same study materials. By assessing the predictive power of the test and fine tuning it over time to better separate the high performers from the low ones.

    There should be no restrictions based upon race whatsoever. Not in favor of whites, blacks, Asians........... or anyone. Race should not be a factor in admissions at all. To quote the first link I posted from Asians against Affirmative Action:
    Whether you are Asian or not, if you're sick of letting affirmative action deprive individuals of equal opportunity, you've come to the right place.

    All we want is to be given a shot at equal opportunity, just as everyone else is. It's time we showed our voice and demand equal opportunity through race blind admissions.

    Let's face it - affirmative action is racism.
    Because all of those things are already illegal.
    I believe in equal opportunity. We are not interchangeable automatons to be manipulated by bean counters who allocate benefits based upon random physical characteristics such as skin color, ancestry, or religion. We are individuals and should be treated as such.

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