Chemistry plus Biology = Abiogenesis:

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by paddoboy, Jul 1, 2019.

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  1. paddoboy

    paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And yet here we are! Life many billions of years after the universe evolved at t+10-43 seconds. So again, tell me another viable scientific answer? You can't!!
    Abiogenesis is the only scientific answer for the emergence of life, not withstanding the fanaticism of Tour, and your own questionable position on this and other matters.
     
    paddoboy, Jul 4, 2019
    #101

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  3. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    If you are going to call witnesses in support of a case, I have the right to question the witnesses' qualifications and authority.
    If that leads us temporarily away from the main subject, that is perfectly permissible in a case of "argument from authority"......

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    Write4U, Jul 4, 2019
    #102

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  5. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    I probably wouldn't have posted in this thread, because I think that exchemist elegantly made all the same points I would have made. But then I noticed that Q-reeus tried to drag me in. So, having now taken a closer look at the thread, I may as well reply. Let's start with:

    Q-reeus:

    Another conspiracy theory, Q-reeus? I guess that if I tell you that I have nothing to do with anything that paddoboy posts then the conspiracy theorist in you might assume I'm lying to you anyway. But there it is: I have nothing to do with anything that paddoboy posts. Believe it or not, we're not private messaging each other and talking about you behind your back. You paranoia is just that.

    I don't much care if you're a Creationist. Lots of people believe that nonsense, and if you're one of those then we can just add you to a very long list.

    As for the "wedge" you mention, I suppose you're worried that religious Creationists might not, in general, agree with you that little green men are visiting Earth, because that idea tends to clash with the idea that human beings were created specially by God to have dominion over the rest of the Creation. If you find yourself in dispute with some of your co-Creationists, I'm afraid you'll need to fight it out with them, not with me - or with paddoboy for that matter. From my point of view, you're just definitely wrong about one thing and more likely than not wrong about both things, so not much skin off my nose.

    Helps explain why UFOs are acceptable in your Creationist belief system, I suppose - if that's what you have.

    Isn't it okay not to know the answer, for now? I mean, scientists are working on the problem. Why do you want to assume you know the answer before the data is in?

    As Yazata explained, it's called methodological naturalism, which is fundamental in science. If you're not looking for natural causes, you're not doing science, exactly.

    Widen the field a bit, though, and we arrive at a more basic kind of healthy skepticism. That skepticism will entertain possible causes outside the material, but step one is to establish that there is something that needs explaining which can't be explained by natural causes alone.

    In other words, if you want to say a god created life, great, but you really ought to be able to point to some facts about the world that we can all agree on and which tend to support your conclusion. If there's nothing to point to a specifically supernatural creator, then why would we want to introduce one into what is already a difficult problem?

    It sounds like your argument is "I can't think how it could have happened naturally. Therefore, it must have happened supernaturally." Can you see the flaw in that reasoning? Or the related "Scientists can't (yet) explain how it could have happened naturally. Therefore, it must have happened supernaturally"?
     
    James R, Jul 4, 2019
    #103

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  7. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    paddoboy:

    Abiogenesis is just a label for the process of going from "lifeless" chemistry to biological life. Clearly that is a process that occurred at some time (maybe more than once). Science has some conjectures about pieces of the puzzle to explain how it might have happened, but there's nothing that scientists would call a Theory of Abiogenesis yet. There's not a complete "answer". That's not to say we won't find one (or more), sooner or later.

    Nobody disputes that there was no life, then there was life. All the argument is how we went from state 1 to state 2.

    Read the wikipedia page:

    No single, generally accepted model means no "answer". Understand?
     
    James R, Jul 4, 2019
    #104
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  8. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    But, as you already suggested, there may be more than a single answer to get to the same result. Hazen specifically mentioned that chemically there may be several "realistic" (probabilistic) answers to the general question.

    Example; Mammals use iron as the oxygen carrier in blood. That's why its red.
    ................Octopi use copper as the oxygen carrier in their blood. That's why it's blue.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
    Write4U, Jul 4, 2019
    #105
  9. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Your belief that life came from non-life by entirely natural processes is not "actual fact", as in not established by conclusive evidence beyond doubt. It is just an assumption that you are making that it could happen in no other way. And that assumption of yours is based on a philosophical stance that you adhere to, even if you don't want to recognise it.

    This isn't the first time you have pooh-poohed philosophy while simultaneously adopting what is fundamentally a philosophical stance. You really ought to stop doing that.

    That's the observation. Then comes the speculation. God did it. Or the laws of chemistry did it. Or whatever. The mere observation that there was no life then there was life is not a theory, in the scientific sense. You haven't explained anything by sticking the label "abiogenesis" on it.

    And in contrast, we don't have overwhelming evidence that life can start from non-life by natural processes. On the other hand, we have even less evidence that life can start from non-life through supernatural intervention, primarily because it has not even been established that the required supernatural entities exist to do the necessary work. So, either way, people have got some work to do to solve this particular problem. I think the religionists have the bigger hurdle to overcome, with a poor track record of getting to first base with the proof of their claims, but you never know.

    Sure, but even if all religion is false, that doesn't mean that science has an explanation of the origin of life by default.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
    James R, Jul 4, 2019
    #106
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  10. Q-reeus

    Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    I never outright accused you of collusion. Drawing out that response clears the air. I'll take your word there, but note you have lied in the past. And 'paranoia' is a pejorative deliberately intended to inflame. I see that tactic often used against esp MR in those other sub-forum threads, e.g. 'the UFO nuts'.
    Define - precisely. Actually, define the spectrum precisely.
    You have grievously misrepresented me there e.g. 'little green men'. You must know better. Hence my earlier remark about you having lied in the past. Shame.
    Really? Do elaborate. But strive to be accurate - something missing so far.
    Umm...how about because the arguments presented by not just James Tour but other competent individuals e.g. Edward Peltzer, are far too robust. But please cite any mainstream researchers in the abiogenesis field who can effectively undermine either of those gents comprehensive critiques of naturalistic abiogenesis. I expect none from you. And am confident you are incapable of personally offering anything resembling a sound critique dealing with specifics.
    See above.
    Ditto.
     
    Q-reeus, Jul 4, 2019
    #107
  11. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Q-reeus:

    We've all lied in the past. I hope I haven't lied about something important. I suppose you're thinking about something specific. Maybe you'll bring that up if you want to make a specific accusation rather than just throw a vague ad hominem at me.

    If you think that somebody is out to get you, then you're paranoid, by definition. There is, of course, justified paranoia and unjustified paranoia...

    I don't see why it is up to me to define your belief for you. If you want to explain what it is, exactly, that you believe about the origins of life or the process of evolution, there's a discussion forum right here, available for your use.

    Not little green men? Sorry, but I've forgotten which kind of aliens you, personally, think are visiting. Sorry if I lump you in with the other alien enthusiasts, but you must admit these are all relatively unimportant variations on the same basic theme.

    Didn't I already explain enough? Read the bit after where I wrote "little green men". Happy to answer questions, if you have more.

    Well, like I said, I wasn't really planning on engaging in this thread in the first place. If I have some free time and nothing better to do, I might take a look at what Tour and Peltzer have to say. It would make my life easier if you could summarise the main points that convince you, but of course you're not obliged to put your argument in a more complete way than you have chosen to do.

    Your estimates of my capabilities are yours to make, of course, and your expectations are also your own.

    Have a good day!
     
    James R, Jul 4, 2019
    #108
  12. paddoboy

    paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    You have it all back to front in my opinion. I'm saying that Abiogenesis [Abiogenesis meaning life from non life,] is the only scientific answer to how life emerged. Certainly we may not know the exact process, or pathway, but that doesn't detract from the "fact" that once there was no life, then there was life. And the scientific answer is Abiogenesis. Religion/god/magic spaghetti monster,ID etc are not scientific reasons. They are mythical speculations.


    No, it is the only scientific answer. Unless you have been holding another answer from the world.
    Are you claiming life emerged via one of the many unscientific mythical means that plague the world?
    My reply re philosophy was in answer to another apparent philosopher who was avoiding answering honestly with silly philosophical semantics. My opinion about Philosophy when taken to such ridicus levels align with Lawrence Krauss and the late Stephen Hawking. If that offends philosophers here then gee, I;m really sorry for offending their sensitivities.
    God is unscientific explanation, sorry James. The only scientific explanation is the label/process/theory/model of Abiogenesis.
    You miss the point...one is a scientific assumption, the only scientific assumption, the other is an unscientific idea, as is any ID.
    I have never denied that science does not know the exact methodology or pathway of Abiogenesis, but that does not detract from the fact that the scenario of life from non life is termed Abiogenesis. Creationists often use the gaps of knowledge in various theories or scenarios to cunningly slip in their "god of the gaps"
    Wrong: q-reeus certainly disputes that. Secondly, what you say is correct about not disputing that life came from non life. Agree with you 100% Jimmy ol son. So what do you want to call it? I don't want the exact pathway or methodology, I just want you to tell me what you call the indisputable fact that life came from non life.
    It's a shame I have pissed exchemist off, as I know he actually agrees with what I say, and that's a crying shame.
    By the way James, this exact topic is being discussed and played out over at another forum, again started by me, and no actual dispute at all, other then for one old friend of mine who belongs here also.He has so far been reprimanded twice. The debate also involves another philosopher who despite the fact that I have also pissed him off after poo pooing philosophers on another matter, has also agreed entirely with my summation as follows.

    "Once there was no life, then their was: We call that Abiogenesis and it is the only scientific theory we have to explain the emergence of life."

    That's what I'm sticking to and that's what I believe that the general mainstream accept.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
    paddoboy, Jul 4, 2019
    #109
  13. Q-reeus

    Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    Here's all I'd like to say in response:
    There are many specific arguments raised by both Tour and Peltzer (), but just one single word encapsulates probably the biggest single barrier to abiogenesis: poisoning. More specifically, inevitability of irreversible poisoning in any realistic prebiotic Earth setting. But like I said, various other factors present their own insuperable hurdles. Collectively, or even singly, it means no chance for naturalistic life from non-life. Best to just watch the vids listed p5 #82, and the one linked above here. One has to gain an overall feel for the pros and cons, the integrity of both sides etc.
     
    Q-reeus, Jul 4, 2019
    #110
  14. paddoboy

    paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And yet here we are!!! As I said q-reeus, the vast mainstream support the observation of life emerging from no life. That is the fact, not some baggage driven ideas from a religious fanatic named Tour.
     
    paddoboy, Jul 4, 2019
    #111
  15. paddoboy

    paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And of course my at least half a dozen articles and papers I have presented, trump your zealot.
     
    paddoboy, Jul 4, 2019
    #112
  16. paddoboy

    paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And you don't believe that someone as involved in religion as Tour is could be somehow biased???
    How about all the other papers supporting the concept of Abiogenesis...Are they just fools?or do you believe their is a conspiracy afoot?
    How does your anti mainstream stance here, compare to other anti mainstream stances you have taken?
    You don't accept that perhaps you could be biased or blinkered?
     
    paddoboy, Jul 4, 2019
    #113
  17. iceaura

    iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Transcript, or forget it.

    It's a lot of work to dig through video for the structure of an argument, and lack of written explication casts doubt on the integrity of the argument in the first place - video avoids easy and direct accountability, a bad indicator.

    Meanwhile, in the early going: No argument from "poisoning" is going to stand, obviously (the planet was too big and varied, the millions of diverse niches too small and isolated), but how it fails in any particular case would govern the critique. So let's see the argument, written down.
     
    iceaura, Jul 4, 2019
    #114
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  18. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    It certainly is not Tiddlywinks.....

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    Write4U, Jul 4, 2019
    #115
  19. Q-reeus

    Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    If you can't be bothered to spend some quality time evaluating the step by step introduction and justification of a suite of compelling arguments, presented by someone with real credentials, don't expect me to spoon feed you with a nice and easy one minute summary. And your contention the planet was too big and varied for poisoning to stand is laughable.
     
    Q-reeus, Jul 4, 2019
    #116
  20. Write4U

    Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    It is your contention that the planet is too small and barren to give rise to life and evolution of species, no?
    Let alone a small poisonous planet. How could life ever emerge other than by miracle.

    Actually bacteria can adapt to almost any environment. Extremophiles and Tardigrades are examples of life having conquered poisons. Why are we so worried about virulent bacteria becoming immune to every poison we can think of. Because poison is only a temporary condition to living organisms. Some die, some adapt, the same way some emerged and evolved from purely bio-chemical reactions, under various conditions.

    Actually the planet used to be too poisonous for evolution of anything other than prokaryotic species of bacteria.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3258841/

    Amazing how that worked. The more oxygen, the greater the number and variety of new species emerging.
    THE RISE OF OXYGEN

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    Cyanobacteria (above) became the first microbes to produce oxygen by photosynthesis.
    Credit: UC Berkeley
    https://www.astrobio.net/news-exclusive/the-rise-of-oxygen/
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
    Write4U, Jul 4, 2019
    #117
  21. Q-reeus

    Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

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    Neither you nor iceaura seem to have a clue as to what poisoning entails in the context of prebiotic 'molecular experiments'. Peltzer will cure you of that deficiency - if you are prepared to study his excellent presentation. Nothing to do with heavy metal style poisoning which you are both almost certainly assuming. The remaining fluff I have no interest in answering.
     
    Q-reeus, Jul 4, 2019
    #118
  22. paddoboy

    paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Real credentials actualy questionable. What isn't questionable is his obvious religious bias that he admits to with evolution, and just as logical and obvious, by extension, Abiogenesis.
    Still some questions back a bit you havn't answered q-reeus.
     
    paddoboy, Jul 4, 2019
    #119
  23. paddoboy

    paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    How about the remaining fluff in the questions I asked you? And what about the remaining fluff generally held by the mainstream. Quite a deft sidestep there q-reeus.
     
    paddoboy, Jul 4, 2019
    #120
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