changin' ur genes

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by gamelord, Jun 6, 2018.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,526
    The interesting part is that when we observe a person in pain our own bodies produce the same chemical pain response as the person suffering the injury. That is the basis of "empathy", the ability to place oneself into the shoes of another.

    AFAIK, empathy is a function of the "mirror neuron system" which can be found in many mammals.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2900004/

    IMO, it is an evolved survival mechanism and is present and displayed very early in life.

    Examples of empathic mirror neuron response are;

    Salivating when watching someone eat a delicious morsel
    Wincing when watching someone else hurt themselves

    Child copying parental behavior

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    https://blog.cognifit.com/mirror-neurons/




    Learning interspecies (sign) language


    R I P........ Koko.......you were a wonderful person.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
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  3. globali Registered Senior Member

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    Weird phenomena should be studied rigorously by scientists, because they can be windows to new discoveries.
    For example, if some advanced seemingly incurable cancers disappear on the themselves without an apparent reason, they should increase the curiosity of scientists on whether there is an underlying actual cause for this phenomenon that can be exploited (like a mutation that these tumors might share).

    Ok there might be data suggesting that microbes or simpler biosystems like viruses, or even proteins can perform complex computations, or individual cells can estimate the position they need to go and migrate during embryogenesis. There might also be (hypothetically speaking) evidence that telepathy or ghosts exist.
    An average person will accept that telepathy exists or ghosts exist based on the data that supports it, or microbes make complex mathematical calculations or quasi-calculations.
    But really competent scientists just make the assumption that since telepathy or ghosts don't exist, or microbes don't make calculations or quasi-calculations, lets go study more in depth what is the cause of these new observations.

    After all, microbes are just biochemical systems that interact with other biochemical systems. What is more likely to you? That microbes make complex computations, or they are just a part of a larger system? Does a drop of water that falls on a mountain has an inner compass and make complex calculations to find a river and eventually find its way to the ocean, or it is just a part of a bigger system?
    Does a drop of water in the ocean calculates its position, or it just belongs to a bigger system?
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    That's where the prefix "quasi-" applies.

    Chemical reactions are not conscious (decison making) responses, but they don't need to be.

    As Bassler shows, bacteria recognize specific chemical attributes (chemical words), which leads to chemical reactions and in certain cases "quorum sensing" in (biochemical) bacteria.

    This has nothing to do with intentional decision making, the chemical responses are mathematical functions based on chemical values and potentials. It is a purely deterministic function. But it can appear to be a form of (unconscious) quasi-intelligent behavior.

    However the results can be the same as performed by intelligent decision making.

    Hence the term "quasi".
    (IMO, it has resulted in the assumption by early hominids of intentional gods being responsible for natural phenomena from observation of apparent intelligent behavior in natural phenomena)
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
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  7. globali Registered Senior Member

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    well, if you mean that microbes, or cells of any type can sense that they are packed in an overcroweded environment, this is a fact. They can sense the scarcity of nutrients and feel the dynamical forces from their neighbouring cells and this leads to a decrease in proliferation rates. I would call this proto-intelligence or even a form of real intelligence.

    However, i don't understand what this has to do with the Universe being quasi-intelligent or the process that makes those cells in the quasi-intelligent.
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,526
    Because there is no true motivation or intent in mathematical functions. True motivated intelligence requires a conscious brain and nothing in the universe can have a brain except for biological organisms, even as they start as purely chemical patterns probabilistically self-organising into bio-chemical molecules and evolving greater sensory abilities and neural information processing networks.

    Lets begin with the regular patterns which frequently and spontaneously form throughout the universe and on earth and often emerge from otherwise chaotic conditions. The physical Universe clearly displays an ability for self-organizing quasi-intelligent self-referential functions.

    These self-organizing patterns are a clear sign of a mathematical aspect to the physical properties and the physical interactions of everything.

    The table of elements is a perfect example of the mathematical self-organizational nature of atoms. We can qualify and quantify all known elements and we even have been able to mathematically create elements which cannot exist in nature due to their inherent energetic instability. But which proves that human mathematics are indeed functionally accurate to predict naturally mathematically emergent phenomena.
    OUR ability to force the manifestation of Higgs bosons from the Higgs field proves that even at the most subtle level human mathematics are functionally efficient. It just takes a lot of energy like the Cern collider.

    Chemistry is the mathematical physical foundation of all observable physical objects and displays a clear mathematical function in the formation of all expressed physical patterns throughout the universe, including the formation of galaxies.

    The identified universal constants (i.e. E = Mc^2) are equations of mathematical relationships between physical values and their inherent energetic potentials to do work.

    Thus IMO, we can say that all natural phenomena occurring throughout the universe display a mathematical aspect and a mathematical potential to perform work. A quasi-intelligent mathematical ability.

    This allows us to conclude that universal values and functions display inherent predictable quasi-intelligent behaviors, completely removed from any intentional or motivated creativity. It is a purely probabilistic but predictable deterministic behavior.

    This is at the purely chemical level throughout the universe. But the process of these creative mathematical processes also results in the formation of bio-chemicals, such as hydrogen, carbon, etc.
    Descending to earth.

    Apparently, during the formation and evolution of earth there occurred an hospitable environment which was responsible in the formation of bio-chemical molecules, self-organization of cells, and the chemical ability to copy themselves. This is how dynamic living organisms emerged, displaying quasi-intelligent abilities, the proto types to the evolution of sensory receptors, neural information distribution networks, central information processing, and the eventual emergence of conscious motivational intelligence.

    All fauna have quasi-intelligent mathematical biological patterns. Daisies and Sunflowers follow the Fibonacci Sequence in the formation of petals and seed distribution. These abilities are a result of natural selection for efficient collection and distribitoion of solar energy through photo-synthesis, a very mathematical process.

    Many flowers and plants can "sense" the position of the sun in the sky and follow its path.
    IMO, all these natural abilities are mathematical precursors to true intelligence.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302352887_Proto-Intelligence

    This is where I make the distinction between quasi-intelligent purely mathematical behavior and the emergence of fully intelligent motivated survival behaviors.

    Note that there are several types of motivated intelligence. Octopy and Cuttlefish are sentient, intelligent, motivated organisms, but they have nine brains and are completely alien to say, mammalian organisms, except for the fact that they too are invertebrates, i.e. extremely vulnerable to predation.
    Their motivated physical abilities and behavior are uniquely adapted to aquatic survival.
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mind-of-an-octopus/

    I mention these as examples of completely divergent evolutionary paths leading to similar intelligent abilities and behaviors, in mutually exclusive environments.

    But none of this requires a supernatural motivated intelligent "helping hand".
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  9. globali Registered Senior Member

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    So you mean that the existence of natural laws (and their ability to be described mathematically) means the universe is quasi-intelligent?
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Not quite. I said the physical universe acts in a quasi-intelligent, i.e mathematical manner.

    It acts mathematically and presents quasi-intelligent behaviors, such as self-organization into specific patterns. Make sure you understand the fundamental definition of "quasi" .
    The attribute being a functional mathematical language, but not a brain, or conscious awareness, or intent......difference!

    I do agree that we might identify these early abilities as examples of proto-abilities.

    p.s. these abilities are peculiar to Eukaryotic, but not Prokaryotic organisms.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  11. globali Registered Senior Member

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    292
    E=mc^2 acts in a mathematical manner as well. What is the difference?

    Btw microbes in overcrowded environments decrease their proliferation rates if they sense scarcity of nutrients or physical pressure from surrounding cells. This is a result of negative loops caused by simple chemical signals. I think that low glucose concentrations activates an Oxidative phosphorylation enzyme and thus as aresult another enzyme inhibits a cell division initiation reaction that i don't recall. Its just 2 simple chemical steps. This is not due to mathematical functions or rocket science. It is however connected to mathematics the same way that everything can be described in mathematics, no different than the fact that E=mc^2 and reflects the fact that the Universe is governed by some physical laws that can be described mathematically.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    E = mc^2 is a mathematical equation. Every physical change in the universe appears to act in a mathematical manner as a result of inherent consistent value potentials and functional abilites.

    I used physical to indicate the physical reality which we can observe. If we're talking metaphysical, any mathematical function would be less obvious, no?
    Personally, I believe that mathematical values and functions are essential at all hierarchical levels of expressed or unexpressed potentials, but as I don't have the ability to defend it, I am loath to make a definitive statement in that respect.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019

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