# CBS document forgery

Discussion in 'Politics' started by madanthonywayne, Sep 11, 2004.

1. ### madanthonywayneMorning in AmericaRegistered Senior Member

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The claims of forgery have been denied not refuted. This controversy is far from settled. There are many issues from a technical and consistency standpoint that just don't make sense. The guy who supposedly wrote the memos is, convieniently, dead but his family says he didn't have any private files and that they certainly didn't give any to CBS. Hell, his wife said he couldn't even type! Where did these mystery memos come from? The whole thing stinks and is going to blow up in Kerry's face if it's traced back to anyone affiliated with his campaign (other than CBS, of course). See these quotes from members of his family from http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/york/york200409100809.asp:
Now, Killian's widow has cast still more doubt on the CBS papers. "Number one, he would not have typed because he did not type," Marjorie Connell told ABC News. "Number two, the wording in these documents is very suspect to me. I just don't believe that, it looks like some things may have been picked up out of a document and then other things just made fictitiously to fill in things, to make them flow. I just can't believe that this is his words, my late husband's words."

And finally, Killian's son has also questioned the CBS documents. Referring to the "sugar coat" memo in particular, Gary Killian told the Associated Press, "It just wouldn't happen. The only thing that can happen when you keep secret files like that are bad things.... No officer in his right mind would write a memo like that."

Some other good sources for info on the problems with this CBS report are:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/007779.php
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/598wfpet.asp

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/9/10/110927.shtml
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_09_05.php#003462
It goes beyond the memos as this quote shows:
I thought on Wednesday that it was scandalous for "60 Minutes" to turn over a good deal of its time on Wednesday night to one Ben Barnes, a one-time Texas political powerhouse who now claims he got George W. Bush into the National Guard.

The problem is not, as some would have it, that Barnes has raised half a million dollars for Kerry. The problem is that Barnes has already lied about this on videotape, and I use the word "lied" without difficulty, where he says he pulled strings for Bush when "I was lieutenant governor of Texas."

The thing is that George W. Bush was sworn into the National Guard in May 1968. Ben Barnes didn't become lieutenant governor until 1969.

From the lies of Ben Barnes to the apparent forgeries of who-knows-who-did-it — why has "60 Minutes" exposed itself in this way?

This was from:
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/28276.htm
another article points out that Mr Barnes own daughter says he's lying as he told her point blank that he did not pull any strings for Bush.

CBS should really be running one of those, "I'm John Kerry, and I approve of this message" deals since they are obviously nothing but a branch of his campaign.

Last edited: Sep 11, 2004

3. ### ElectricFetusSanity going, going, goneValued Senior Member

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CBS is connected to Kerry, what like how FOX news is connected to Bush?

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7. ### GravityDeus Ex MachinaRegistered Senior Member

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Its good tactic for them to attack specific documents as a smokescreen for the issue as a whole - which regardless of those specific documents, it looks like Monkey-Boy is a ChickenHawk who didn't even show up for a physical that was required because he was doing too much blow to pass it.

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9. ### NeildoGoneRegistered Senior Member

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That's the most amusing thing for me too.

- N

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11. ### GravityDeus Ex MachinaRegistered Senior Member

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This is still all a smokescreen though -- a typical distraction. Like when asked about health care for all Americans to say "hey, we have to stop gay marriage!" When asked about those tax incentives given to companys to OUTSOURCE their jobs overseas to say "beware the next terror attack". When asked about benefits to servicemen and their family's being cut DURING A WAR to say "we support our troops, if you don't support our war - you don't support our troops".

The fact is, regardless of those specific memos (I mean - who knows!?) there is LOTS of other evidence that the shrub is a chickenhawk coke snorting moron. Attacking a few specific pieces of paper is a distraction.

12. ### madanthonywayneMorning in AmericaRegistered Senior Member

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No. The specific evidence cited in the CBS report is demonstrably false. You allude to other evidence, what is it? Why wasn't it used in this National Enquirer level smear job. The guy who was supposedly exerting the pressure to "sugar coat" Bushes record is now known to have retired before the memo was even written.
Furthermore, one of CBS's "other sources" now denies he ever supported this story and says CBS tried to mislead him about their intentions

13. ### GravityDeus Ex MachinaRegistered Senior Member

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Verbal evidence by the guys who served in his unit, a small and tight unit who say things like "we all heard he was supposed to be with us . . . I never saw him!"

You sound like the type, madanthonywayne, who likely parrots Limbaugh and any ideas about our Loser-In-Chief you disagree with simply cannot be true.

14. ### madanthonywayneMorning in AmericaRegistered Senior Member

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Limbaugh's all right, although I rarely listen to him since I'm generally at work when he's on. This deprives me of the chance to parrot him as much as I would like to. Regarding verbal reports from others in his unit, that should have been the basis for the story in the first place (if it's true). But it's too late for that. Once you concoct a BS story built on lies and forgeries, you lose all credibility. As further proof that these memo's are a fraud here's a quote from Joseph Newcomer, one of the pioneers of desktop publishing:

Last edited: Sep 13, 2004

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Dan Rather should be fired.

In fact, he should quit by himself, after admitting what an incompetent (or malicious) "journalist" he is (was).

As for those folks who claim that this whole deal is a smokescreen, i suggest you read this short little op-ed.

You see, it doesn't matter who served for their country. Kerry, the moron, made it the central piece of his "Reporting For Duty" campaign, and now it's backfired, so he started a smear campaign against Bush which now too has backfired.

If you wanna talk about smokescreens, Kerry's "I'm a war hero" strategy is a classic case. And he's failed miserably at it.

Who wants a smoke-screen casting, poor-decision making, flip-flop-flip-flopping, undecided commander-in-chief?

If his vision for the future is "I was a war hero", the American public, I hope, is not interested.

16. ### GravityDeus Ex MachinaRegistered Senior Member

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You are quite right:

1. Social Security Surplus

BUSH PLEDGES NOT TO TOUCH SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS... "We're going to keep the promise of Social Security and keep the government from raiding the Social Security surplus." [President Bush, 3/3/01]

...BUSH SPENDS SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS The New York Times reported that "the president's new budget uses Social Security surpluses to pay for other programs every year through 2013, ultimately diverting more than $1.4 trillion in Social Security funds to other purposes." [The New York Times, 2/6/02] 2. Patient's Right to Sue GOVERNOR BUSH VETOES PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "Despite his campaign rhetoric in favor of a patients' bill of rights, Bush fought such a bill tooth and nail as Texas governor, vetoing a bill coauthored by Republican state Rep. John Smithee in 1995. He... constantly opposed a patient's right to sue an HMO over coverage denied that resulted in adverse health effects." [Salon, 2/7/01] ...CANDIDATE BUSH PRAISES TEXAS PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "We're one of the first states that said you can sue an HMO for denying you proper coverage... It's time for our nation to come together and do what's right for the people. And I think this is right for the people. You know, I support a national patients' bill of rights, Mr. Vice President. And I want all people covered. I don't want the law to supersede good law like we've got in Texas." [Governor Bush, 10/17/00] ...PRESIDENT BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION ARGUES AGAINST RIGHT TO SUE "To let two Texas consumers, Juan Davila and Ruby R. Calad, sue their managed-care companies for wrongful denials of medical benefits ‘would be to completely undermine' federal law regulating employee benefits, Assistant Solicitor General James A. Feldman said at oral argument March 23. Moreover, the administration's brief attacked the policy rationale for Texas's law, which is similar to statutes on the books in nine other states." [Washington Post, 4/5/04] 3. Tobacco Buyout BUSH SUPPORTS CURRENT TOBACCO FARMERS' QUOTA SYSTEM... "They've got the quota system in place -- the allotment system -- and I don't think that needs to be changed." [President Bush, 5/04] ...BUSH ADMINISTRATION WILL SUPPORT FEDERAL BUYOUT OF TOBACCO QUOTAS "The administration is open to a buyout." [White House spokeswoman Jeanie Mamo, 6/18/04] 4. North Korea BUSH WILL NOT OFFER NUCLEAR NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM... "We developed a bold approach under which, if the North addressed our long-standing concerns, the United States was prepared to take important steps that would have significantly improved the lives of the North Korean people. Now that North Korea's covert nuclear weapons program has come to light, we are unable to pursue this approach." [President's Statement, 11/15/02] ...BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFERS NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM"Well, we will work to take steps to ease their political and economic isolation. So there would be -- what you would see would be some provisional or temporary proposals that would only lead to lasting benefit after North Korea dismantles its nuclear programs. So there would be some provisional or temporary efforts of that nature." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 6/23/04] 5. Abortion BUSH SUPPORTS A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE... "Bush said he...favors leaving up to a woman and her doctor the abortion question." [The Nation, 6/15/00, quoting the Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, 5/78] ...BUSH OPPOSES A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE "I am pro-life." [Governor Bush, 10/3/00] 6. OPEC BUSH PROMISES TO FORCE OPEC TO LOWER PRICES... "What I think the president ought to do [when gas prices spike] is he ought to get on the phone with the OPEC cartel and say we expect you to open your spigots...And the president of the United States must jawbone OPEC members to lower the price." [President Bush, 1/26/00] ...BUSH REFUSES TO LOBBY OPEC LEADERS With gas prices soaring in the United States at the beginning of 2004, the Miami Herald reported the president refused to "personally lobby oil cartel leaders to change their minds." [Miami Herald, 4/1/04] 7. Iraq Funding BUSH SPOKESMAN DENIES NEED FOR ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR THE REST OF 2004... "We do not anticipate requesting supplemental funding for '04" [White House Budget Director Joshua Bolton, 2/2/04] ...BUSH REQUESTS ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR IRAQ FOR 2004 "I am requesting that Congress establish a$25 billion contingency reserve fund for the coming fiscal year to meet all commitments to our troops." [President Bush, Statement by President, 5/5/04]

8. Condoleeza Rice Testimony

BUSH SPOKESMAN SAYS RICE WON'T TESTIFY AS 'A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE'... "Again, this is not her personal preference; this goes back to a matter of principle. There is a separation of powers issue involved here. Historically, White House staffers do not testify before legislative bodies. So it's a matter of principle, not a matter of preference." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 3/9/04]

...BUSH ORDERS RICE TO TESTIFY: "Today I have informed the Commission on Terrorist Attacks Against the United States that my National Security Advisor, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, will provide public testimony." [President Bush, 3/30/04]

9. Science

BUSH PLEDGES TO ISSUE REGULATIONS BASED ON SCIENCE..."I think we ought to have high standards set by agencies that rely upon science, not by what may feel good or what sounds good." [then-Governor George W. Bush, 1/15/00]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION REGULATIONS IGNORE SCIENCE "60 leading scientists—including Nobel laureates, leading medical experts, former federal agency directors and university chairs and presidents—issued a statement calling for regulatory and legislative action to restore scientific integrity to federal policymaking. According to the scientists, the Bush administration has, among other abuses, suppressed and distorted scientific analysis from federal agencies, and taken actions that have undermined the quality of scientific advisory panels." [Union of Concerned Scientists, 2/18/04]

10. Ahmed Chalabi

BUSH INVITES CHALABI TO STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS...President Bush also met with Chalabi during his brief trip to Iraq last Thanksgiving [White House Documents 1/20/04, 11/27/03]

...BUSH MILITARY ASSISTS IN RAID OF CHALABI'S HOUSE "U.S. soldiers raided the home of America's one-time ally Ahmad Chalabi on Thursday and seized documents and computers." [Washington Post, 5/20/04]

11. Department of Homeland Security

BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY..."So, creating a Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything." [White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, 3/19/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of America and protecting the American people." [President Bush, Address to the Nation, 6/6/02]

12. Weapons of Mass Destruction

BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories...for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." [President Bush, Interview in Poland, 5/29/03]

...BUSH SAYS WE HAVEN'T FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION "David Kay has found the capacity to produce weapons.And when David Kay goes in and says we haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war. Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to another country, and we'll find out." [President Bush, Meet the Press, 2/7/04]

BUSH SUPPORTS FREE TRADE... "I believe strongly that if we promote trade, and when we promote trade, it will help workers on both sides of this issue." [President Bush in Peru, 3/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS RESTRICTIONS ON TRADE "In a decision largely driven by his political advisers, President Bush set aside his free-trade principles last year and imposed heavy tariffs on imported steel to help out struggling mills in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, two states crucial for his reelection." [Washington Post, 9/19/03]

BUSH WANTS OSAMA DEAD OR ALIVE... "I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'" [President Bush, on Osama Bin Laden, 09/17/01]

...BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OSAMA "I don't know where he is.You know, I just don't spend that much time on him... I truly am not that concerned about him."[President Bush, Press Conference, 3/13/02]

15. The Environment

BUSH SUPPORTS MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE... "[If elected], Governor Bush will work to...establish mandatory reduction targets for emissions of four main pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, mercury and carbon dioxide." [Bush Environmental Plan, 9/29/00]

...BUSH OPPOSES MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE "I do not believe, however, that the government should impose on power plants mandatory emissions reductions for carbon dioxide, which is not a 'pollutant' under the Clean Air Act." [President Bush, Letter to Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE), 3/13/03]

16. WMD Commission

BUSH RESISTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE... "The White House immediately turned aside the calls from Kay and many Democrats for an immediate outside investigation, seeking to head off any new wide-ranging election-year inquiry that might go beyond reports already being assembled by congressional committees and the Central Intelligence Agency." [NY Times, 1/29/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE "Today, by executive order, I am creating an independent commission, chaired by Governor and former Senator Chuck Robb, Judge Laurence Silberman, to look at American intelligence capabilities, especially our intelligence about weapons of mass destruction." [President Bush, 2/6/04]

17. Creation of the 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush took a few minutes during his trip to Europe Thursday to voice his opposition to establishing a special commission to probe how the government dealt with terror warnings before Sept. 11." [CBS News, 5/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION "President Bush said today he now supports establishing an independent commission to investigate the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks." [ABC News, 09/20/02]

18. Time Extension for 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush and House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) have decided to oppose granting more time to an independent commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks." [Washington Post, 1/19/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION "The White House announced Wednesday its support for a request from the commission investigating the September 11, 2001 attacks for more time to complete its work." [CNN, 2/4/04]

19. One Hour Limit for 9/11 Commission Testimony

BUSH LIMITS TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF 9/11 COMMISSION TO ONE HOUR... "President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have placed strict limits on the private interviews they will grant to the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, saying that they will meet only with the panel's top two officials and that Mr. Bush will submit to only a single hour of questioning, commission members said Wednesday." [NY Times, 2/26/04]

...BUSH SETS NO TIMELIMIT FOR TESTIMONY "The president's going to answer all of the questions they want to raise. Nobody's watching the clock." [White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 3/10/04]

20. Gay Marriage

BUSH SAYS GAY MARRIAGE IS A STATE ISSUE... "The state can do what they want to do. Don't try to trap me in this state's issue like you're trying to get me into." [Gov. George W. Bush on Gay Marriage, Larry King Live, 2/15/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BANNING GAY MARRIAGE "Today I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife." [President Bush, 2/24/04]

21. Nation Building

BUSH OPPOSES NATION BUILDING... "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road." [Gov. George W. Bush, 10/3/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS NATION BUILDING "We will be changing the regime of Iraq, for the good of the Iraqi people." [President Bush, 3/6/03]

BUSH SAYS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEEN AL QAEDA AND SADDAM... "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." [President Bush, 9/25/02]

...BUSH SAYS SADDAM HAD NO ROLE IN AL QAEDA PLOT "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11." [President Bush, 9/17/03]

23. U.N. Resolution

BUSH VOWS TO HAVE A UN VOTE NO MATTER WHAT... "No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam." [President Bush 3/6/03]

...BUSH WITHDRAWS REQUEST FOR VOTE "At a National Security Council meeting convened at the White House at 8:55 a.m., Bush finalized the decision to withdraw the resolution from consideration and prepared to deliver an address to the nation that had already been written." [Washington Post, 3/18/03]

24. Involvement in the Palestinian Conflict

BUSH OPPOSES SUMMITS... "Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you may remember. It wasn't all that long ago where a summit was called and nothing happened, and as a result we had significant intifada in the area." [President Bush, 04/05/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS SUMMITS "If a meeting advances progress toward two states living side by side in peace, I will strongly consider such a meeting. I'm committed to working toward peace in the Middle East." [President Bush, 5/23/03]

25. Campaign Finance

BUSH OPPOSES MCCAIN-FEINGOLD... "George W. Bush opposes McCain-Feingold...as an infringement on free expression." [Washington Post, 3/28/2000]

...BUSH SIGNS MCCAIN-FEINGOLD INTO LAW "[T]his bill improves the current system of financing for Federal campaigns, and therefore I have signed it into law." [President Bush, at the McCain-Feingold signing ceremony, 03/27/02]

26. 527s

Bush opposes restrictions on 527s: "I also have reservations about the constitutionality of the broad ban on issue advertising [in McCain Feingold], which restrains the speech of a wide variety of groups on issues of public import." [President Bush, 3/27/02]

…Bush says 527s bad for system: "I don't think we ought to have 527s. I can't be more plain about it…I think they're bad for the system. That's why I signed the bill, McCain-Feingold." [President Bush, 8/23/04]

27. Medical Records

Bush says medical records must remain private: "I believe that we must protect…the right of every American to have confidence that his or her personal medical records will remain private." [President Bush, 4/12/01]

…Bush says patients' histories are not confidntial: The Justice Department…asserts that patients "no longer possess a reasonable expectation that their histories will remain completely confidential." [BusinessWeek, 4/30/04]

28. Timelines For Dictators

Bush sets timeline for Saddam: "If Iraq does not accept the terms within a week of passage or fails to disclose required information within 30 days, the resolution authorizes 'all necessary means' to force compliance--in other words, a military attack." [LA Times, 10/3/02]

…Bush says he's against timelines: "I don't think you give timelines to dictators." [President Bush, 8/27/04]

29. The Great Lakes

Bush wants to divert great lakes: "Even though experts say 'diverting any water from the Great Lakes region sets a bad precedent' Bush 'said he wants to talk to Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien about piping water to parched states in the west and southwest.'– [AP, 7/19/01]

Bush says he'll never divert Great Lakes: "We've got to use our resources wisely, like water. It starts with keeping the Great Lakes water in the Great Lakes Basin...My position is clear: We're never going to allow diversion of Great Lakes water." [President Bush, 8/16/04]

30. Winning The War On Terror

Bush claims he can win the war on terror: "One of the interesting things people ask me, now that we're asking questions, is, can you ever win the war on terror? Of course, you can." [President Bush, 4/13/04]

…Bush says war on terror is unwinnable: "I don't think you can win [the war on terror]." [President Bush, 8/30/04]

…Bush says he will win the war on terror: "Make no mistake about it, we are winning and we will win [the war on terror]." [President Bush, 8/31/04]

17. ### ElectricFetusSanity going, going, goneValued Senior Member

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It looks like the title of "smoke-screen casting, poor-decision making, flip-flop-flip-flopping, undecided commander-in-chief" fits very well to Bush, actually and argument could be made to fit that title on to any candidate that’s runs for presidency. It all depends on your partisanship who you will believe, follow and love and who you will dislike, demonize or hate.

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Absolutely, WCF. However, look at Kerry and his strategy of winning the Presidency. Just today Kerry has launched Operation Fortunate Son.

The name is based on the song, which is a very good song. But I really don't see any relevance of this association of Bush with "Fortunate Son" and the real issues. I'm wondering though, why is Kerry not addressing anything that Gravity has copied&pasted without giving proper citation? I think he's taking the whole Vietnam thing personal. An obsession of a very confused man.

Hey, Kerry, here's a newsflash: The war is over. It's been over for over 30 years. Time to talk about the issues and not about some irrelevant shit, which by the way has cost and is costing you points, not gained you any.

If this guy is so horribly bad with his election strategy, what makes any of you think he'll be good with any issue (which is much more important) as President?

19. ### GravityDeus Ex MachinaRegistered Senior Member

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Uzi does it eh? Big fan of todays drop of the assult weapons ban are we Otheadp?

Yeah the war is over, and if its old news that shouldn't be brought up -- please explain then why the Shrub and his puppeteers make a big deal of Kerry's speaking out against it 30 years ago?

And you think Moron-Boy and his handlers are BETTER with the issues? Huh?

Last edited: Sep 13, 2004

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I think that the non-renewal of the ban on these weapons is stupid and dangerous. In part because many of these weapons will end up in my city - Toronto. I know the homocide rate next year will see a spike up in T-dot.

But back to John John.

I am actually very happy that this moron is still talking about Vietnam and Bush's army record. This does several things to lose him points:
a) He does not present his agenda on issues or even criticisms of Bush's agenda
b) He continues to remind the US public about his Vietnam record with is highly controvercial by now
c) He is not using his campaign money and airtime to defend against the Bush-camp's criticisms of him
d) He shows the US public what his priorities are: not healthcare, not defense, not the economy, not social insurance, but Vietnam

He's shooting himself in both feet - on purpose, and he's too dumb to even realize that!

There's no need for right-wing bloggers or hard-line conservatives -- Kerry's own words and actions will make the end of his Presidency run.

What a moron.

21. ### GravityDeus Ex MachinaRegistered Senior Member

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I'm not convinced Kerry is all that bright - to be sure. Though he is a 100 watt bulb next to Dubya.

And I too think the Repug's will win - regardless of who votes for who. Electronic voting machines sold by a man who has not hidden his partisanship. Black votes being tossed again. Or hell - whatever it takes. They believe the end justify's the means, and that God is on their side -- so no amount of lying, cheating or stealing is ''wrong'' to such a mentality. Democracy may be already gone for all practical purposes.

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I'm not convinced Kerry is all that bright - to be sure. Though he is a 100 watt bulb next to Dubya.
considering their history (and not their pronounciation of words) i beg to differ. and i did consider Kerry very intelligent until i saw his strategy and voting history brought up.

the thing is, they are not alone in their thinking. they are surrounded by strategiests and advisors.
Bush is surrounded by what the loony left calls "chicken hawks", "neo-cons" or whatever.
Kerry is surrounded by that bald guy from CNN's crossfire who is considered one of the best political strategists in the country, by Bill Clinton (a man who needs no introduction), a billionaire (George Soros) who funds smear organizations that compare Bush to Hitler and call him an idiot, literaly, ... who else.. oh yes, Al Gore, and all the other "maverick senators" and all his campaign advisors.

and the best strategies he can come up with are the nonsense that we see.

so it's not just his stupidity, it's his whole clique's stupidity.
i don't know about that 100 watt bulb.

They believe the end justify's the means, and that God is on their side -- so no amount of lying, cheating or stealing is ''wrong'' to such a mentality
i do think you're overreacting. there are enough checks and balances in place to prevent a conspiracy from succeeding.

fuck, they couldn't even make a hero out of Jessica Lynch, or hide the Abu Ghraib affair... you think they can hide a big scandal like fixing the elections?
that's going into Conspiracy Theory Land

I too think the Repug's will win - regardless of who votes for who.
if they win that does not automatically mean that it was a fraud, even if you really don't like the Monkeyman

23. ### GravityDeus Ex MachinaRegistered Senior Member

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Checks and balances are falling . . . read the non-headline political storys. Executive branch, the house and senate, packing the supreme court. Redrawing voting precients. Electronic voting machines. Tossing away votes from minority's who tend to vote ''wrong''.

Listen, I believe that people I don't agree with should hold power too - that the definition of checks and balances. I think that the checks and balances to neo-con Christian corporate martial law is fading.

And - I certainly hope I'm overreacting. But I'm also sure that on various continents during various times . . . people also thought that alarmists were ''overreacting". Again, I very much hope to be wrong, but there are enough people alarmed at where things seem headed that perhaps we should just be a *little* extra careful now?

If they do win, it indeed doesn't mean automatically that it was a fraud. But . . . it seems like 2000 might have emboldened them a bit more even!

---------------------------

God is MAD at Florida . . . wonder why?